Management vs. training and living with dogs that just don't get along

It's what no one wants to experience... breaking up a dog fight. Unfortunately, so many of you experience it and even live with multiple dogs in the same house that don't get along. In this episode, we're chatting about the difference between management vs. training and how we can use what to live a life with these types of dogs. You know I'm always here to share the things no one wants to talk about, so enjoy and this hopefully makes you feel a little less alone if you have ever had to deal with something so serious. As always, thank you for being here and enjoy.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

Hello and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. On today's episode, I'm talking with you all about training versus management and how to deal with a multi-dog household, aggressive dogs, dogs that don't get along all the good stuff. You know the drill Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet me back here. Hello, hello and welcome back, as always. So happy that you're here. Hope you've got yourself a tasty little drink, because we're getting into all the good juicy stuff. So just a few little like I don't know check-ins, housekeeping things, life updates, all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Next week we start our virtual shadow program, which I am very excited about. I'm also a little bit nervous. I don't get nervous for a lot of things, but this is so foreign to me. I think I'm really good at relationships with people in person and I'm sure there's people out there that are like, but OK, but you know, I really enjoy working with people face to face, talking with people face to face. So this is a whole new challenge for me, face to face. So this is a whole new challenge for me and essentially what I wanted to accomplish with the virtual shadow program is I just wanted to create a resource for people who want to kind of dive a little bit deeper into the world of dog training, whether you're just, you know, a new owner, looking to kind of learn a bit more about, you know, behavioral modification and how trainers do things. Or if you're a new trainer and you're looking to kind of take the next steps in your business or just kind of wondering, like, what everybody else is doing. I know I was in that place not that long ago and the funny thing is now I've had the opportunity to talk with like so many dog trainers, like so many dog trainers, and I'm truly blessed. But it's really funny because we're all doing pretty much the same thing, which is cool because I think there are a lot of really awesome dog trainers out there. Like I definitely am not the best dog trainer by any means, definitely am not the best dog trainer by any means, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:47

So it's really cool to talk with other people about, you know, what they're doing, the methods that they have, how they run their businesses. So I'm kind of putting together all of my knowledge that I've learned from you know, my own business, talking to other dog trainers, having friends who are dog trainers, just kind of like plugging all the knowledge that I have into an online course so that it's more accessible for people who, you know, like I don't know, can't drop their entire lives to come and do a shadow program with me in person, as much as I would love everyone to be able to do that, because, you know, the program that we ran in January was the coolest thing ever and I think I've already talked about that but genuinely in my career, it was the most fulfilling thing I've done. So I'm like, okay, this is cool as fuck. I definitely want to work with other dog trainers, and I don't even want to say newer dog trainers, because a lot of y'all, if you're a dog trainer and I've talked to you before or even if you're an owner, like you all, are killing it like really, really, you know, passionate and invested into gaining more knowledge into dog training. I think where a lot of people kind of struggle is just like a bit of imposter syndrome or like a lack of confidence in themselves and their own abilities. So even when I have, you know, trainers come into work for me that's, that's something that I hope that I teach them is like they have a lot of knowledge, especially to, like, the average owner, and it's all about just kind of like tapping into that confidence which will help you lead people and train people on dog training and train owners and train dogs and, you know, do all of that good stuff.

Speaker 1: 4:24

So, anyways, kind of rambled on that. But yeah, that starts next week. I'm super pumped about that, a little bit nervous, but, like I said, I like to do things that make me a little bit nervous because that means that, like I'm doing something new, I'm stepping out of, you know, the ordinary stuff that I do. As far as the ordinary stuff that I do currently still training dogs in the house in Florida, in Orlando. So it's just myself and I have a boy. I do not talk about my dating life ever. I do not talk too much about my personal life ever. I try to keep them separate, you know, and when I say like separate, I mean like I'm not going to go and like air out all of my laundry and personal information on a podcast. But I'm doing that a little bit today and this is this is a little wild for me because I don't do this, but I have been sharing a lot of my life back here at the house and the dogs that we work with. So I have to mention the boy that's been in all of my stories.

Speaker 1: 5:31

So Toma is the boy I don't even know how to say that, but he has been living with me. He's actually from Canada, so he was planning on going out to Primal Canine and working with Mike Jones. Shout out, mike Jones. And yeah, I had been talking to him for a little bit about my experience there and how much I loved Primal and how, like, if you get an opportunity to go and work for Mike Jones, like you totally should. So yeah, we were kind of like talking about that experience on my road trip and I was like you know what, quit your job, go and work for Mike. Like it's totally worth it, do it. So he was like, all right, cool, quit his job. And then I was like, well, maybe before you go there you should stop in Florida. Yeah, so he came to Florida and has stayed. So I'm sorry, mike, I have stolen the person, but I think you know all is good and yeah, things are running really well.

Speaker 1: 6:40

So I have to say that one, because there's been a person in my stories and I feel like I haven't talked about it on the podcast yet, and the podcast is one of my like most intimate forms of you know, talking with you all and reaching you all and I was like I felt I felt like I needed to share even though I don't really like talk about my personal life that much, but like that should that should be good, good right that I'm like excited to share that with you all. So, yeah, toma is the one who has been in my stories. He is helping me train all of the dogs. I'm not living alone in the house like a crazy person with a whole bunch of dogs. I do have help and it has been wonderful. So that is my little life update.

Speaker 1: 7:21

I'm not going to get too much into that, but it does also kind of play into this week's episode which is all about training versus management, and this is just kind of my definition of each of those and how I view them. But what brought know do this episode is? I actually had to experience like a very scary dog fight and I know that people don't really like to talk about these things because it it's kind of like I don't know, it's embarrassing, especially as a dog trainer. Like I feel horrible that, like I let anything happen and dogs got into a fight. Luckily it was not like client dogs or anything like that. So Toma has a German Shepherd and a Malinois two intact, pretty like dominant males, and he was out of the house and so I was taking care of the dogs. I was rotating everybody, taking everyone out to go potty, and I made a rookie mistake that led to a dog fight.

Speaker 1: 8:37

So I wanted to kind of touch on you know what it's like to live with dogs that don't get along, how we can manage that and what training can actually do for you, because I know so many people, you know, just, I have a lot of clients that experience this, that have multi dogs, multiple dogs in the house. The dogs don't necessarily like each other. Let's say, 99% of the time they're fine, but that 1% they break out into like fights and it's really intense and scary. And I know that so many of my owners experience this and I want to talk about my experience to hopefully make you, you know, not feel so isolated and just give like a very real you know approach to how we can live life with these dogs and kind of what our options are as far as training and management goes. When we live with dogs that you know need a little extra, they need a little extra management. They don't necessarily get along. It's not like we can leave them out unsupervised and have them cuddle and be best friends 24-7, you know. So, essentially, what happened with the dogs? Tomo was out of the house. He was about I don't know an hour away from me.

Speaker 1: 10:00

When I'm like alone with dogs, especially with, like higher risk dogs and I'm not saying his dogs are high risk, but even Gretchen, sometimes, if I'm not feeling my best mentally, it's very difficult for me to handle her because she picks up on that and if you have a behavioral dog, you know what this feels like. It can be very draining to have a dog that you really you know you always have to be 10 steps ahead. I always have to think of, like you know, if there's a bone left out on the floor or making sure all the all the doors are closed, and like you're just constantly thinking about those things. And if you're going through stuff personally or, you know, even just you're tired, it can be tough to think clearly and feel confident in handling those dogs. So I've felt a little bit uncomfortable being in the house alone handling dogs, because I'm like okay if something does happen and like a dog, let's say, bites me or like goes up the leash, attacks me in any sort of way, like nobody's going to know, like literally no one would know because I'm alone. And that's a really scary thought and I used to be a lot more, I'm going to say, confident, but like a little bit more stupid. Confident but like a little bit more stupid. I think when I was a little bit younger and less experienced I was just kind of like blindly confident in, you know, my abilities to handle dogs that I probably shouldn't have been alone with. So this thought has like crossed my mind before.

Speaker 1: 11:41

Essentially, thomas Toma was out of the house and I was taking his dogs out. He has two dogs, a German Shepherd and a Malinois. Both are very big dogs. Like they're very big dogs and they're not bad dogs. They're very well trained, but they're kind of pushy. They're, like you know, pushy forward dogs. So I was taking his shepherd out. His shepherd was being so pushy with me and also I have zero relationship with them and if you handle like more intense dogs, you know that you really do have to kind of like be firm with them and establish that relationship early on and I really hadn't handled his dogs too much Like I would exist with them but I wasn't, you know, giving them commands or telling them what to do ever.

Speaker 1: 12:32

So his dogs were super pushy with me and basically his shepherd like pushed out the crate door and I was like all right, I gotta, I gotta, leash you. So I go and grab a leash, I, you know, put him on a leash, I walk him into the living room and as I'm like trying to wrangle him, his other dog is just like losing it. Like the Malinois is just like barking nonstop. And I can't have dogs like barking nonstop because it sets off all the other dogs and I have to be respectful of my neighbors. Like I can't have dogs just like you know, barking, barking, barking super loud. So I was like all right, whatever, I'm going to let go of you, let go of the shepherd, he's in the house.

Speaker 1: 13:21

I go back into the bedroom, I shut the door door, I grabbed the Malinois e-collar and my thought process was I'm just gonna pop open the door and like put the e-collar on real quick without him coming out, like I do that with board and train dogs. But I have a relationship with these dogs like they know not to bust out of the crates, and it was just like not smart thinking on my part and I opened the crate door a little bit. He pushes me out of the way, I'm like on the floor in this bedroom and then the other shepherd pushes the bedroom door open because it didn't latch all the way. And this is like a tale as old as time like make sure that the doors are closed all the way and latched fully. This is like the dumbest mistake that you can make and essentially I got caught up in a dog fight. They instantly started fighting. It was a small space, I was kind of on the ground and I was like all right, so I got my footing.

Speaker 1: 14:26

I'm like standing in the bedroom with these dogs that are just absolutely attacking each other super loud, like they're clung to each other immediately, and so I like do what everybody does and I'm like hey, hey, hey. Obviously that doesn't work because like shouting at dogs that are intensely fighting is never going to stop them, but it's just like the human response, right. So I was like all right, walter has a slip lead on Walter's the shepherd. He had the slip lead on and his Malinois had uh like a little uh slip collar, I guess, with like a tiny little handle I don't know what those are called. So I was like, all right, I have something to like choke them off of each other, right? So I attempt to grab walter's slip and I just have.

Speaker 1: 15:19

I am a tiny baby infant in this moment, like I. I am a tiny baby infant in this moment, like I stood no chance to these dogs, like my tiny, feeble efforts to pull these dogs apart was like there was literally. It was comical. Like I'm trying to grab the lead and like choke the shepherd off of this other dog and the other dog is just like equally as clung to him. So then I'm trying to like double fist these dogs like in the air, and I am just simply not strong enough or tall enough or big enough, like there's no way, like they're just such big dogs. So I'm like, okay, I just need to get out of the bedroom. So I get out of the bedroom, I close the door. They're still going at it.

Speaker 1: 16:08

I'm standing there and I realize I'm in the living room. Minka, my little baby Malinois, soft little chicken nugget dog, is on place and she looks just petrified. So I look at her, she looks at me. We basically have the same face on, like we're both just like getting ready to cry, like oh my gosh, this is so scary. So I'm like, okay, I need to get minka out of the living room. I grab minka, I throw her into the dog room. I'm like, okay, no other dogs are out, like everybody else is crated.

Speaker 1: 16:40

I had two other dogs in the living room Mink, who is a rescue dog that I've had forever, because she's kind of an unsafe dog and I just I want to make sure that you know she's OK before I just like hand her off to somebody, anyways. So she's in the living room, she's in a crate. Lucy is also in the living room, in a crate. So I put Minka in the dog room. I rush back over to the door. I grab a metal broom handle. I'm like maybe I can just smack them around with this broom handle and like get them to stop, which is just so silly. But in those moments of panic you're like anything, I'll try anything, right. So so I open the door. I start like smacking one of the dogs on a head with a metal broom handle Literally nothing. Again, it was just so comical my feeble efforts to break up this dog fight At this point we're probably five to ten minutes in Like I have been attempting to break up these dogs for a while now and I'm standing at the door of the bedroom it's closed and I just start hyperventilating, like there is no worse feeling than knowing that something horrible is going on and you can't do anything about it.

Speaker 1: 17:59

Like I was, like these dogs are not going to stop, like they're going to kill each other and there's literally nothing that I can do. And in that moment I was like running through, like do people have like tranquilizers on deck? Like what is the protocol for this? You know, like when you can't like physically break up a dog fight, like what? What are people doing? So I'm like standing on the outside of the door, just like racking my brain for ways that I can like break them up and I can't, like there's literally, there's nothing, there's no force that I can put on these dogs that would ever stop them from fighting. Like they just hate each other at this point, right? Like they just hate each other at this point, right.

Speaker 1: 18:45

So I start hyperventilating and I'm I like have a history of panic attacks, but I haven't had one in a very long time. I would say that was a solid panic attack. Hyperventilating this isn't how I respond to these sorts of situations. So then that makes me like hyperventilate even more because I'm like I don't do this, like I don't freak out like this. I'm always the calm person. I'm always the person who, like handles things, you know, emotionally detached. I don't get emotional in these moments.

Speaker 1: 19:15

But this had been going on for like 10 minutes and there was nothing that I could do Break up these dog fights. So I text Toma or I call Toma. He is in a motorcycle certification course. Just so we, just so we're clear. I text him. I said, or I called him. He didn't answer. He texted me. He said hey, I'm still in class. Like I'll call you when I get out. And I said your dogs are going to kill each other. They got into a fight. He calls me like two minutes later. I'm hyperventilating, I'm freaking out. He was surprisingly calm. He was like Meg, there's nothing that you can do. Oh, also, I kind of skipped a part.

Speaker 1: 19:55

But while I was like texting him, I made the decision to open up the bedroom door so that at least they weren't just like trapped in a room and if they got tired then like one could go to one side of the house and one could stay on the other. Like you know more space, right? Don't just like lock them in a room. So I was like all right, I'm going to open this door. So I opened the door and they just like fell out of the room. And how my house is set up, there's like the bedroom that's like right next to the hall bathroom. So I like was standing in the hall bathroom and they were just going ballistic and I was like I'm, I'm going to get caught up in the middle of this. So I like slam the bathroom door.

Speaker 1: 20:34

And I'm in the bathroom at this point, hyperventilating on the phone with Toma and he's like well, I'm going to leave, but Are you OK? And I was like, yeah, I'm fine leave, but are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I'm fine, obviously not that calm. I was like, yeah, I'm fine. And he was like okay, I'm really sorry, I'm on my way home. So he was like 45 minutes away and I am in the bathroom, on the bathroom floor, crying, listening to these dogs just sound like they're killing each other. Essentially it was. It was the sound that I think was so like traumatizing to me because I was like wow, I'm literally going to sit here and listen to these dogs kill each other, like that's what's about to happen and I can't do anything about it, and like these are not my dogs, they're his dogs. And like it was just, it was so, so awful. And it was so horrible too, because I was there for so long.

Speaker 1: 21:32

I was in the bathroom and they never stopped and they were outside, just like slamming their bodies on the bathroom door, like sounding like they're going to kill each other. So I call my friend. She's in a lesson. She steps out. She's like are you OK? Is everything OK? And I'm like, yeah, I'm like trapped in the bathroom, like they're going to kill each other, I don't know what to do. Blah, blah, blah. And she was like well, I'm, you know, like 50 minutes away from you. I I can come over, like I'll leave right now. And I was like okay, and then I called her back and I was like don't worry about it, like Toma's on his way, he's probably gonna beat you here. Like don't drive across town, just to like I'm okay, I'm not hurt, you know it's, you're not gonna get here in time, essentially. And she was like, okay, well, let me call my friend, she can go over, who is also a dog trainer. She can go over and help you. So I was like, okay, yes, send her over, like please.

Speaker 1: 22:24

And then I'm sitting in the bathroom and I'm like that could probably be like the worst thing ever, right? So like these dogs are fighting, and then somebody walks into the house like God forbid, these dogs like hurt somebody else. So I called her back and I was like don't worry about it, like I'm just going to wait for Toma to get here. Literally 45 minutes later I'm sitting in the bathroom I have plugged my ears at this point Like they are still going, they are still fighting each other, like full on. He comes inside, he has to break them up. He like grabs a chair and like pushes a chair in between them and like pins one to the ground with the chair and grabs the other one. And like they were still going and attacking each other 45 minutes later and he had to come and break them up and I'm literally like rocking back and forth in the bathroom.

Speaker 1: 23:24

It was by far like one of the worst experiences I've I've ever been through in in my like dog trainer career and I think it was because I just felt so powerless in that moment. Like I always have some sort of control over situations like that and I had zero control because these dogs were just so big and so powerful and it was quite humbling and it kind of messed me up a little bit. Like for the next two days I I really like did not feel safe being around his dogs. I did not feel safe handling, you know, some of the more severe behavioral dogs at my house. I was like very sad because I was like damn, I've I've never acted that way. Like I've never had that sort of reaction to a situation like I lost a lot of confidence in myself and my ability to handle, you know, situations like that and more severe dogs, and I always pride myself on handling situations with dogs, especially very calmly. I always want to act how I want the dogs to act and I just didn't in that moment.

Speaker 1: 24:45

It was just coming from a place of I had zero control over the situation and I had been in situations like this before with Lucy and Gretchen, like I was home alone, and this was when I lived by myself in the house, like nobody was living with me. I had Lucy and Gretchen out, and I don't know what happened, but Lucy corrected Gretchen, and then Gretchen went and corrected Lucy, and then it just turned into a fight. The thing with Lucy and Gretchen, though, is they're small and I can pull them off of each other like. It's usually not that serious. They've never put like puncture wounds into each other, like it's never gone on for that long.

Speaker 1: 25:32

I've always been able to break it up, and I think part of that, too, is like I have a relationship with them where, you know, I've trained both of them and I teach them management skills so that I can handle situations like that. Nonetheless, it's like terrifying, and no one likes to see their dogs getting into a fight, but it was just not as intense as it was with Toma's dogs because of the sheer size of them. So typically in that situation when I'm trying to break up a fight with dogs which, luckily, it's only happened with my dogs I haven't really had other people's dogs get into fights because I'm I'm very limited with who I let them interact with. With my dogs. I get a little bit lazy, right, and I know I don't even want to say lazy, I just think, like I set, I let my guard down a little bit because I do know them so well and I think that's's, you know, something that's relatable.

Speaker 1: 26:37

If you have dogs that fight every now and then is like they're usually good, right, they're usually good, they usually get along like. We don't typically have issues until we do, and then when we do, it's pretty problematic and it is a fight that is stressful for everybody. So I have a little bit of experience just with my personal dogs and now Toma has experience with his dogs and what life like that kind of looks like. When you have, you know, behavioral dogs or dogs that just don't get along. It's a very different world that you kind of have to live in. So I know a lot of clients of mine experience this. I have a handful of clients right now that have multi-dog households and the dogs just simply don't get along Like they. Just they don't get along. They don't get along. They're fine 95% of the time but it's not like 5% to 1% where they get into fights and it's bloody and it's damaging to everybody. It's stressful for the owners, it's stressful for the dogs. So I have to have the conversation with them about training versus management.

Speaker 1: 27:53

There's a ton of training that we can do. In my eyes, training is what we can teach dogs. It's, you know, teaching them new skills. It's teaching them how to walk on a leash. It's teaching them sit and down and place. It's teaching them recall. That is, you know, training. To me, we're training the dogs to do something, to learn a new set of skills. Management, for me, is taking that training and taking those skills and applying it in a way that controls a dog's behavior. So I truly believe that dog trainers don't have as much influence in behavioral change as we would like to think.

Speaker 1: 28:49

I think a lot of the behavioral change that we do simply comes from management, from managing the behavior so that it cannot continue to happen. Because each time behaviors happen whether we're struggling with reactivity or aggression or dog fights when those behaviors happen, our dogs get better at them. Every single time we're tipping the scales in that direction, and the reason being those behaviors are very emotional, they're very like, influential in our dog's brain. It typically only takes one big emotional experience to have, you know, a long term effect on that dog's state of mind and on that dog's behavior. So when our dogs get into fights, even if it doesn't happen very often, it's going to happen more and more because it was such an emotional response that our dogs are going to fall into that behavioral pattern much quicker. That's why dog trainers emphasize like getting your dog excuse me, getting your dog excited to work for something. Getting your dog excited, you know, changing their emotional response around things that they don't like. It's because if we can have like a big emotional experience, a positive one, around something negative, then we can start to shift the change in that dog's behavior.

Speaker 1: 30:18

But I think a lot of the behavioral change in the dogs that we train is simply coming from our ability to manage the behavior. So a good example of this is if I have two dogs that don't get along, I can put training on those dogs, but the training isn't really going to change deep down to the dog's core how that dog feels about the other dog. For example, if you you know don't like somebody for certain reasons, like it usually doesn't change unless you like make new experiences with that person. Or you know, like you typically have reasons that you don't like somebody and it's not that that person is like bad or whatever. It's just like, hey, we don't really vibe, and it's the same thing with dogs. So, anyways, let's say we have two dogs that don't get along.

Speaker 1: 31:16

We can teach those dogs a skill like place and put those dogs on place and hold them accountable to that skill. We can hold them to place. We can teach them that you don't break this command unless I release you from this command, so that we can take that skill and we can use it to have the dogs safely exist in a room together. We can put both dogs on place. If we teach our dogs that there's a consequence for breaking the behavior, we can teach them to just hang out and chill on place in a room. We can teach them how to be neutral together and we can manage them so that they don't even get the chance to interact with each other and get into a fight. Because we're managing them so closely, we're not even letting them interact. Right, I'm not going to let you like free roam around this room because you've shown me that when I give you that level of freedom, you don't make very good decisions. So I'm going to micromanage you and I'm going to use that training, that training of place to teach you what I want you to do in that situation. And yes, over time we are going to change the dog's like emotional response to that other dog, simply through repetitions of neutrality.

Speaker 1: 32:34

You guys are having a neutral experience. You're hanging out in place. You're having more neutral experiences. You're hanging out in place. We're going for structured walks together. You're hanging out next to each other. I'm not giving you the option to interact, to get into a fight, because I know that that's happened in the past and I'm not even going to let it get there. I'm going to manage you guys so that you know that never happens and we don't have those experiences again. So the training is to teach your dogs these skills like place or walking at heel, so that you can safely manage those types of dogs.

Speaker 1: 33:09

But I want one thing to be very clear A lot of times the management is for life. A lot of times the management is for life. I will never trust lucy and gretchen to exist out in a room together unsupervised, because the risk is not worth the reward. The reward in this sense is what you know my dogs get to hang out in a room together. Does that really matter? Like truly does that really matter or is that just something that I want for them?

Speaker 1: 33:42

So it's important that we check our expectations of what we want our dog's lives to be, because, you know, I had a recent client whose dogs this has actually been a couple of people. I've had a couple of people whose dogs just didn't get along. They got one dog later, or you know their litter mates. One of the dogs just doesn't vibe with one of them. They don't get along, they can't be trusted, they get into fights, they don't want to rehome them one of the dogs. Totally understandable. We, you know, I don't want that for you either.

Speaker 1: 34:21

Like nobody wants to be told that they should rehome their dogs, but one of the things that you know, one of the reasons why they got a dog is to keep the first dog company and so one we got to check our expectations of like our dogs don't really need company. Like you shouldn't get an untrained dog for your untrained dog. Like that's just not a good recipe. And this is like I mean I got Lucy and that was like a whole thing. You know you get the second dog and you're like, oh shit, but anyways. So they got this dog for their first dog.

Speaker 1: 34:59

The dogs weren't interacting with each other and she was like I just want them to be able to like eat together. Like I just want them to eat next to each other. And I'm like, why, like? Why, like? What is the real reward there? Like, why, why do you want that? Why is that like? Is that like? Why is that a goal for you? Like, we got to check our expectations of like what our lives should are with dogs. Like this should look like like I will never, ever, ever, ever attempt to feed lucy and gretchen or any dogs like close together, because it's never worth the risk. Like what is the real reward in this situation?

Speaker 1: 35:41

Genuinely like there's nothing wrong with feeding your dogs in crates is the safest place for them. It's their cozy space. It's a way to make the crate a good thing and you know, build a positive routine around crate time and meals. Like there's so many benefits to safely feeding your dogs in crates. And you know not do like group feedings or feeding dogs just like in the kitchen when other dogs are walking around or leaving food out. Like there's no reward to that. There's genuinely no reward.

Speaker 1: 36:13

So like, why do we want that? Why is that like one of our goals, like one of our goals and this is a common thing, especially when I'm kind of breaking it to people of what life looks like with dogs that don't get along. It doesn't look like how you think it does. You don't get to sleep in bed with both dogs at the same time, like that's not something that we get to do, because dogs view the bed as a resource. And if you have dogs who don't get along, when we throw in high value resources into a situation, that's only adding conflict. So you know, there's a reason that your dogs get kind of sketchy on the couch and they get kind of sketchy in the bed with you. Or when another dog is eating or there's like a bone or a toy or something out on the floor, there's a reason. That's because that's a resource. And if your dogs are already kind of like duking it out when you throw resources in there, you're just adding fuel to the fire. So when you have dogs like this, it's really important to see all of those little things and look 10 steps ahead, not leave out a bucket of toys. You know this.

Speaker 1: 37:27

All of these things, all of this way of thinking, is management. That's not necessarily training. We're not training the dogs on skills. We're managing life with these dogs because that's kind of the only safe way that we can coexist together dogs, because that's kind of the only safe way that we can coexist together. So management is seeing those things that could be added conflict in a situation or, in my case, with the fight with Toma's dogs.

Speaker 1: 37:54

It's being able to kind of really make sure that the door is latched, that I don't, you know, have both dogs out at the same time, that I don't even think about opening one crate door until the other is closed. The same thing with Gretchen and Lucy. I don't, you know, I don't have them out in the house. We're crate and rotating those dogs because it's just not worth the risk. And, yes, we can have interactions together. We can have both dogs on place, we can put both dogs on the treadmill. You know we can manage them, we have the skills in place to be able to safely manage them. But life without management just isn't there, like it's just not worth the risk.

Speaker 1: 38:41

I never want to leave those dogs up to their own vices, simply because the risk is not worth it and I've seen it firsthand Like it's not fun and luckily his dogs kind of came out like very unscathed for how long it went on. You know they have puncture wounds and things like that, but nothing that needed stitches. You know we got them antibiotics, we cleaned it out, we did all of all of the things that we needed to do, but we got very lucky. I got very lucky that those dogs didn't hurt themselves even more. So this is like I wanted to share that story because I think a lot of people experience things like that and it's very terrifying. It's very isolating.

Speaker 1: 39:29

You feel like you've fucked up, you feel like you're a bad, you know dog owner or parent or you know like you feel like it's all your fault and I'm here to tell you that like it is a little bit, but that's OK. You know, if it's your fault it's not your fault. It's your responsibility some form of training to be able to safely manage those dogs and to kind of, you know, check your expectations of what you want life to look like versus what's actually best for you and those dogs. On days where I don't feel up for it, I'm not gonna ever let like Lucy and Gretchen out interact in the yard On days that I don't mind being in full blown dog trainer mode and watching them very closely and having e-callers on everybody and having all my you know tools in place and things just in case, like on days that I want to do that, I'll do that, but on days where maybe I'm not feeling my best, I don't ever want to risk a situation like that again to happen. So if a dog trainer comes to you and they're like, oh, I can make your dogs get along, we can fix this, it's just not true. The fixing is just teaching those skills to be able to manage those dogs safely, and I never want to encourage people to get rid of their dogs, but sometimes that's what's best for the owners and the dogs are miserable because their lives are so structured because they can never be out at the same time. Is that really a fair life for a dog when, if they were in another household with another dog, they would have a lot more freedom and live a better life? I'm always going to support that option, and also for owners as well.

Speaker 1: 41:39

Not everybody can handle, you know, really big dogs that don't get along. If a single woman owned Toma's dogs and they didn't get along, I would suggest she rehomes one of those dogs because God forbid she ever, ever be in a situation that she puts herself at risk. And I kind of experienced that firsthand and I really had to kind of battle between do I keep trying? Do I keep trying to break up this fight or do I, you know, keep myself in the bathroom where I'm safe and, you know, hope for the best. And I'm sure that there are people out there who would handle the situation entirely different. And if you would have asked me two years ago how I would handle a situation like that, I would have been like, oh, I would have never let that happen, like I would have been able to break up that fight. I a thousand percent would have been that person and said those things. But after having had experiencing what words, after I experienced that it humbled me, let me tell you.

Speaker 1: 42:49

So I have a lot of empathy for people who you know are going through something similar, where they live with dogs that don't get along and all you want from like the bottom of your heart is for your dogs to get along and everybody to coexist peacefully and like. It sounds wonderful and if a trainer comes to you when you're in that vulnerable state and tells you that they can fix all of your problems, it's it's most likely not true. Can they make your life so much easier through training? A thousand percent. If I have a dog that, let's say, the owner doesn't have a lot of control over and you know the dogs are getting into fights e-collar training can do a lot for you. It can allow you to safely manage those dogs and safely live with those dogs and have a little more like control over things you know. So yeah, heck, yeah, let's e-collar train those dogs. Let's, you know, teach them leash. Let's teach them recall, let's teach them place like, let's do all of the training. Let's do all of the training, because why not? All dogs benefit from training. It doesn't matter if they have behavioral issues or not. So let's do all the things and take those things and take those skills and manage the dogs and see how it goes.

Speaker 1: 44:10

But unfortunately, management does fail and I have experienced that firsthand. And if the risk of management failing is putting you at risk or somebody else at risk and you can't, you know, control the situation, you can look into other things. But you know, if you do choose the management route, sometimes it's for life. I will always have to manage Lucy and Gretchen and it works for me. I can do it. You know, I've had the. I've been able to have staff help me take care of Gretchen. I don't have to bring her with me everywhere. I have a treadmill in my house Like. There are a lot of things that I can provide Gretchen that somebody else wouldn't be able to. I can give her a, you know, relatively good life given her circumstances. You know she doesn't love other people. She doesn't love Lucy, it's really just Lucy. Other dogs she's okay with. I don't have to worry about her. She's much more social with other dogs than with people. I worry with her about people too, and that's also another kind of thing that I have to consider.

Speaker 1: 45:28

Gretchen is my German Shepherd. I adopted her, adopted her I don't really know Um, one of my trainers at the time, who's like now one of my best friends. Uh, she is known for giving people dogs and she found this dog on a rescue page and the dog was getting ready to get put down because she had so many bites and she was like we can save her and I was like, okay, go get her. So I went and like, got my, got this dog from my friend, nicole, and the idea was to be able to train her and then adopt her out and then I realized like, oh, this is actually kind of like a really serious dog and she could really hurt somebody. I cannot give this loaded gun to somebody. So now Gretchen is mine and I've had her for I don't even know a lot of years now and she's great with me but she's not great with other people. That's like a whole other story that we just do not have time for today.

Speaker 1: 46:23

But you know, life with her is management. Luckily I have the skills, I have the tools, I have the home, I have the environment to be able to manage her safely, to be able to manage life with her and Lucy safely and give everybody like the best, the best case scenario scenario, the best life that they could. But you know, if you're not in a situation where you're able to either physically handle and manage dogs like that, I would honestly support rehoming, getting giving them to, you know, a good owner, somebody that, like you, feel good about. And the good thing is, if you do have dogs that are like this and you're like I don't know what to do, like do I get rid of one dog. Do I, you know, train the dog? New baby dog trainers will probably bash me for this for ever suggesting rehoming dogs.

Speaker 1: 47:17

But the fact of the matter is like I just work with farming too many people and I will always value human lives over dogs and I never want people to be at risk or be in unsafe situations where they fear living with dogs because they either can't break them up or the dogs will redirect or bite them and hurt them or in any sort of sense. So you know, when I'm talking with my owners, that's always something that I talk with them about is like realistically rehoming one of the dogs to be able to give each dog like a better life, to give you a better life. I will never guilt somebody for you know having to make that decision because nobody wants to make that decision, especially if you're a dog person, you have dogs and you love your dogs like nobody ever wants to consider rehoming one of their dogs. So I know a lot of people don't take that lightly, but essentially that's always, you know, an option for people and I never want you to feel guilty.

Speaker 1: 48:13

I know that there's a lot of guilt that comes with having behavioral dogs or aggressive dogs or reactive dogs. We always feel like we're not doing enough and we can't provide enough for them. But sometimes that's just that's how the cookie crumbles and all we can do is do our best. So I hope this gives you some sort of insight into you know what is like living with behavioral dogs. Give you a little bit of empathy empathy if you have, like, a cuppy cake dog or if you have a little soft golden retriever dog and you know it's. It's not always so easy and you just don't know that until you've been in a situation like that or you have dogs like that. Like it's a really tough situation to be in and I just want you to feel that if you're in that you're not alone and it sucks, and it's okay that it sucks, but there's a lot that you can do. I always suggest training. Teach your dog new skills. Teach them management. Use your leash in the house to manage the dogs. Teach them things like place to have them neutrally interact and just don't force them to be best friends. Check your expectations at the door. Take each day as an opportunity to create more neutral experiences as you can and just do your best.

Speaker 1: 49:41

We all mess up. I've been doing this for a long time now and I made a rookie mistake and it unfortunately led to dogs getting hurt and, thank the Lord, nothing severe happened. It was, honestly, best case scenario for what did happen and for how long these dogs fought. But it's a lesson that I learned and I always triple check doors and making sure that they're closed all the way. Now, god, I will always triple check doors, I truly will, and it has been this very tough lesson to learn.

Speaker 1: 50:19

So, as always, I'm here to kind of, you know, share all of my mistakes along the way in dog training and my business, to hopefully prevent you from, you know, making those same mistakes or feeling guilty or, you know, all that sort of stuff. Gotta gotta share my perspective. So I'm going to go ahead and wrap it up there. Thank you again so much for joining me, listening to me rant, being here, listening about my personal life, all of the things. Uh, as always, you can, you know, join our community. We always got the community, the community. We got the shadow program going on next week. What else do we have? We got in person dates being released, all good stuff coming soon. As always, I'll keep you updated here and thank you guys so much. I'll see you next week, thank you.