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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Different Country, Same Dog Training: Alessandro's Journey
Curious about the world of dog training from an international perspective? Discover the unique insights of Alessandro, our skilled guest from Spain, as he shares his transformative journey from BMX riding to becoming a passionate dog trainer. Learn about the cultural nuances in dog training across borders, particularly in Spain, where certain tools and approaches are viewed differently. Alessandro’s personal story of adopting a Malinois with challenging behaviors serves as a gateway to exploring the broader responsibilities and expectations of dog ownership.
From understanding the complexities of high-drive dogs to addressing common misconceptions in dog training culture, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Explore the challenges faced by urban pet owners and the importance of committing to a dog's needs, particularly in environments that might not be optimal for energetic breeds. Whether you're navigating the world of pet ownership or seeking to deepen your understanding of canine behavior, Alessandro's experiences and expertise offer a compelling perspective on building meaningful relationships with our dogs.
Grab yourselves a tasty drink and enjoy.
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Hello and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. On today's episode, I'm joined by a very special guest, alessandro. He is a dog trainer in Spain, so he's going to talk to us all about the culture of dogs there, what his experience is like as a dog trainer and some tips for you, for, you know, changing the way that we view our dogs. So this is a really good episode. You know the drill grab yourself a tasty drink and meet us back here. Hello, hello, welcome. Thank you so much for having me, of course, of course, toma is also here, say hello, hello, pleasure to be back so we are currently recording this at primal.
Speaker 1:What's new? We are still, we are still here. Mike has not kicked us out yet and you are in town all the way from Spain for the Canine Street League decoy cert.
Speaker 2:Yes, the most intense weekend of my life. Yeah, tell us all about it. So I'm Alessandro, first of all, and I'm a dog trainer too, and I've been dreaming about staying here for the past four years. So it's been a really intense trip till here. And finally, when I saw that there was the pro camp and the certification at primal canine, I was like, okay, let's shoot a shot. And it went really good. Like I've been traveling till here with a 25 or 6 hours trip, so it's been kind of intense, that's crazy, but it paid off. So, yeah, it's been here and being able to meet you all and work together, work your dogs has been something really magical for me. Yeah, and deco certification was really something else I was not expecting was Thanks, mike, if you're listening to this.
Speaker 1:You survived.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's definitely pretty crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how was your experience, toma?
Speaker 3:I mean like we've been here for a while, but I think, like even just for you, like stepping into the building, seeing the building for the first time, like that's magical on its own.
Speaker 3:Oh wow, I was like a kid at Disneyland for for sure. When it's one of those things that you've been wanting to do for a long time and actually setting foot in the building, it's really cool. But the certification itself was pretty extreme. I think we're two days past certifying and I'm so exhausted. I got a little cold, but you know we're surviving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was pretty intense. I'm glad that I was not an active participant in any of it. But for the people who don't really know what like decoying is or are maybe new to bite sports, do you want to kind of explain the whole point of like the decoy cert and what you do as a decoy? Okay, so from the beginning yeah, okay for someone who doesn't know anything okay.
Speaker 2:So decoying is something that is the funniest things you can ever do, basically with a dog. No, it's basically build a working dog. It's something first really fun, that can be really intense, but that you can really think about how to do it. It's not something that you just go outside, put a suit on and just let the dog bite. That is what many people in Spain think that being a decoy is just catching dogs and moving the stick around and hitting the dog with the stick. But many people don't understand what's really building a dog, building a puppy and going through all the dog maturing into the bite and having a stable grip, a calm grip, helping the dog be more comfortable and confident, not just during the bite but also on the street. So many times people don't understand that letting your dog bite a decoy is just a way to channel a lot of energy and natural instinct that the dog naturally has, but do it in a controlled way yeah.
Speaker 1:So for those of you who know like absolutely nothing about like bite sports or any of that, dogs like malinois are bred to bite, right. So one of the ways that we can fulfill their like natural. Oh, my god, fucking Farouk, I was like the ghost is here. Farouk just walked in on us literally behind the dark corner from like a different entrance than normally anyways.
Speaker 1:So Malinois are like bread to bite and we need to like biologically fulfill them. So decoys are the ones who are like putting in the work to be the ones that are getting bit by these dogs. So if you ever see people put on the big suits or sleeves, it depends on what sport you're in. That kind of depends on like what the decoy is like wearing and what you see them doing with the dog. Um, but yeah, it's just a way to like bring out a dog's natural instincts and kind of direct it at something in a safe way yep, yeah, there's a lot of technique that goes behind it.
Speaker 3:I would say the decoy cert is more so I wouldn't say like focused on building a dog, but more so focusing on the physical component of a decoy for a trial setting. Basically a sport trial would be over the course of a two day weekend and you're going to be catching, you know, multiple dogs, like 30, 40 dogs a day, and you need to be showing the exact same picture to each dog. And you got to think that the handlers that have been training their dog they've been, you know, investing a lot of time into the process and therefore, like the decoy is kind of like a thankless job where you always have to just show a perfect picture and you know, if the decoy messes up, you know you're gonna hear about it. So basically, the decoy cert really focuses on the physical um component of the decoy and that's why the cert was like so physically challenging yeah but I think it's the best though oh, yeah, like
Speaker 2:in spain this doesn't exist. Other certification are way different from canaan street league and way softer. So basically, give the opportunity to everybody to go and trial, basically. And I think it's just more dangerous because being a decoy is being able to have catching a dog in a safe way and work the dog in a safe way. And if you're not ready physically after 25, 30 dog, you're going to hurt a dog and that's what we don't want Absolutely 25, 30 dog.
Speaker 1:You're gonna hurt a dog and that's what we don't want absolutely. And that's what I really like about what mike has put together with street league is he's actually turning like decoying into a sport absolutely like an actual, like athletic sport yeah, you got to take it seriously like it was a.
Speaker 3:So it was a two-day cert. A lot of running, a lot of other no let's, let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Day one we are with you.
Speaker 3:The first day was an easy day Quote uneasy.
Speaker 1:According to Mike.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mike's a madman. He runs a half marathon every morning before starting his day at like four in the morning. So what easy means for him is different to your average Joe. But basically in the morning we did a bunch of like drills you can think about, like kind of like a football training, like some side shuffles, that kind of stuff, some groundwork, more like a like a. He had Omar Lima like a Jiu Jitsu fighting coach. Come, come in. We did some stretches. Uh, you know a bunch of running, you name it I really like that.
Speaker 1:Like I like how mike incorporates like his background of fighting into the decoying stuff, because like he is actually like walking you guys through a warm-up and like technique matters not just about like catching dogs or working dogs, but like technique matters for his decoys, like just in their like health and fitness.
Speaker 3:You know absolutely there was. I think that's really cool. There was injury prevention, but then also like even if you think about like the canine street league drive where, like you catch the dog and then you put pressure, the, the drive itself, uh, really focused on the footwork and like footwork and like fighting, you know, kind of goes hand in hand.
Speaker 3:So you can see there's really like an emphasis on on that aspect yeah um, so the first day we, you know, we saw, we saw some pictures about like how to catch the dog, how to drive and like the specific canine street league way. Um, and I mean I guess relatively it was an easy day.
Speaker 2:We finished at five and he said he was gonna have a surprise for us the next morning yeah, day two day two we came here, all happy and stuff, and we saw mike coming in with his running shoes and we were like, fuck. Mike was like, okay, let's go for a warm-up run. And everybody was like, okay, it's gonna be chill. And um, um, it was a tuesday, not thursday. Um, I came here and mike was talking about a 50 miles run yeah so I was like 50 miles run.
Speaker 1:I was like I never even thought somebody could run that much like no, the night before, like after everybody left, of course mike is still here like working his dogs and like everybody went out to dinner and I didn't go. So I was just like hanging out in the facility. And I walked in he was like yeah, I'm debating between a 20 mile and 30 mile. And I was like mike, people cannot run 30 miles. Like that's not like a feat that like a human being can just like do without training for like months and months and months. You know, I was like definitely aim for 20 if we're gonna choose.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for that, yeah and I mean aaron as well.
Speaker 4:It was like mike, you gotta you gotta watch out.
Speaker 3:You're gonna kill these guys. The crazy thing with mike is he keeps you on your toes like you never really know what's next.
Speaker 4:He's like oh yeah, just like you want to say it again.
Speaker 1:He doesn't even know what's next, he's just figuring it out as he goes it's all just in his head honestly, that's how I do shit too, like when I did a seminar, like I did not plan literally one thing out and it went amazing.
Speaker 3:But I think if I tried to like plan it like, it wouldn't have been as good, and I feel like it's the same thing for him, you know to be fair, though, like he runs a lot, and even the day before he was testing some of the stuff and he was like oh yeah, it's even a little limit for me. Maybe tomorrow I won't bring the bag, because, like normally in the certs, there's like a hundred pound weighted bag that you have to carry at some point while you're running in a suit yeah, but basically he took you guys out for a run in the morning and he the intention was 20 miles and then well, we didn't even know that we're just running, oh, you didn't know.
Speaker 3:No, you have no idea.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely not. No, absolutely. Mike was like okay, we have some room, we have some miles ahead, and I was like oh, okay, nice, and after two miles or three, like some people thought, like it was five max, you know, and like then we're just dropping guys like flies and then it's like how many people were there um, I think with mike we were 13 and pretty soon we were like a group of seven and then we couldn't see the other guys.
Speaker 3:Yep, yeah, so we basically ran to the next town over, so from Gilroy to Morgan Hill, and then we were kind of coordinating to see where the other guys were and we just kind of stayed on the same strip and ran back and kind of picked people up and then.
Speaker 1:So you ran like 15 miles, you tracked it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was, it was, it was like 16 miles yeah.
Speaker 1:So Mike got like what? Like eight miles in, and then it was already like halfway through the day. It was like one 30.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it took longer than it should, but we were kind of waiting for people and we just had to get back. So Aaron came, picked everyone up, we had 30 minutes of quote unquote rest at the facility Of eating, yeah, and he tricks you like you know you really shouldn't be eating that much because you will puke. So you know, everyone comes back, we suit up and you don't know if he's taking out dogs or if you're doing another drill. So the other thing too is like with the suit sometimes you put like a gauntlet underneath which is like a, like a new pre.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like the equivalent of like a wet suit but just for like your sleeve, and that's like added protection. But at the same time, if you're running doing squats and all that stuff, you got to gauge like do you wear the added protection or not. The first day I did. The second day I was like nah, like I'm physically too exhausted, so I'll just take the pain and suffering of like getting bit by a dog and like I'll be more mobile, so we get into that and it's the same thing like squatting, uh, doing lunges, like some army crawl and basically it's just like Burpees.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Don't forget that. Yeah, a circuit, a circuit with the suits on Correct, and then he takes dogs out.
Speaker 3:And every now and then, like you know, you get to like one fence and it's like do five burpees, yeah, okay, you're done doing these burpees, you're exhausted. And then doing these burpees, you're exhausted.
Speaker 2:And then mike just shoots burpees like everyone has to do more burpees like ah, yep, um, and then he takes dogs out and staples them on you while you still have to do these exercises. Amazing, but you got, I think, the worst ozzy bite on the tricep.
Speaker 3:Yeah him slamming your arm into the freaking gravel yeah, I had no juice to even do those push-ups without and he literally saw my weakness. He's like aaron tomah's next. That's literally what it was like, um, but yeah, it's the way she goes and honestly it was. It was a great experience. Like you, and I.
Speaker 2:that was yeah. We've been living the dream, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've both been wanting to do this for a while and yeah, we both survived.
Speaker 2:We were dying, but hyped like hyped on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at the end, like the picture of everybody, like everybody's like, straight faced, and then like you two are like just like cheesing Farouk even said look at the two foreigners in the corner.
Speaker 3:Why are you all?
Speaker 1:so happy Smiling.
Speaker 3:We had a good camaraderie throughout and, like I think we helped each other get through it and I mean not just us, I think everyone in general. There's definitely a team building component when it comes to a whole group of guys suffering together to accomplish something, and that on its own like mike really did an amazing job to like build the community, and I think the cert on its own is just a whole other level of like building this brotherhood yes, absolutely yeah and I we were talking about that, but that's one of my favorite things.
Speaker 1:That he's done is like he's built this really awesome community of people who just want to work dogs and there's like no drama, there's no shit talking.
Speaker 2:They enjoy it Super important.
Speaker 1:Enjoy it Like everybody is there to like learn from each other and work dogs Like that's literally it.
Speaker 2:And also pushing each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the best, yeah, yeah no, it's really cool to watch oh absolutely, but you'll be super helpful, like pushing us.
Speaker 2:I think we arrived to a moment in the last 15 or 20 minutes, because it was one hour and a half or one hour, I don't remember.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was short, short Well, because normally it's two hours, but it was kind of cut short.
Speaker 2:And honestly it's probably 15 miles warm up maybe.
Speaker 3:I couldn't. Yeah, it was the first time that he had this long run. At the beginning I couldn't have done more, like it was really to the brink of total exhaustion, yeah. And then afterwards, words was club, and then everybody worked dogs until what? Midnight, correct, but that's like just the mic show, like he. Like club always runs pretty late and he just has a passion for working dogs, so he's just they. They love working dogs and the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad you can make it out.
Speaker 2:That's so awesome oh, thank you so much. Yeah, it's a dream coming.
Speaker 2:Coming is a really dream like coming, just being here yeah, coming through and just stepping here, as you were saying to mom, just stepping inside here or just arriving and arriving here and be like, oh wow, everything is so different from spain, everything, everything is bigger cars, food, everything. So I enjoyed that part because I love to eat, but, nice, I really enjoyed everything stepping in here. It was like a dream coming true. You know when you're dreaming and you're like oh fuck, I hope I am not gonna woke up now because yeah, it's gonna be fucked like you woke up and be like oh, it was just a dream.
Speaker 2:Another one.
Speaker 3:No, it's really surreal. And he, there's such a good group, a gathering of good people. Um, like, my obedience with my dog progressed so exponentially since being here.
Speaker 2:There's something to be said like just being surrounded with like this caliber of dog and caliber of trainers, and yeah, no, it's been amazing seeing you working your dog with two decoys the first day and then the day after you healing between four decoys, just enjoying the process, your dog, enjoying the process like huge steps steps ahead.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yeah, I'm mind blown. I literally couldn't have done that a couple months ago, so the progress has been huge I think part of that also.
Speaker 4:I think part of that also is just like the fact that your background and like kind of where you came from has been so different to like what you've experienced here is where, like you, you're so accustomed to like putting so much pressure on your dog versus like showing your dog successful pictures Right, and like now that you've kind of started to see like your dog is a lot more capable than you, give him credit for it and, like you, now you're starting to trust him more and in return, he's starting to trust you more. So that's why you're seeing to trust him more and in return, he's starting to trust you more. So that's why you're seeing such an exponential growth in such a short amount of time that you weren't able to get in the past year that you had him, that you've seen in the last two months that you've been here.
Speaker 3:For sure, yeah, and you've been a huge part in you know, even you know showing me that that my dog's capable of way more than I give him credit for. So I appreciate you.
Speaker 1:I think part of that too is like I forgot where I was going with this.
Speaker 3:I mean, you've been talking to me about clear communication as well, oh yeah, but also, like you have, we'll say Hawk is like a more intense dog, right, but like compared to the primal dogs, right, like it's just another dog you know, it's just like yeah, so part of it, you know, I think you were like around people who didn't actually, who had more like sporty dogs yeah, and I mean hawk is still a sporty dog, but yeah, the caliber of dogs here is something else and it's yeah it kind of puts things in perspective, I mean.
Speaker 1:But also, like you, literally thought that it was like the end of the world when he, like, redirected on you and then like it like happened yeah parook gets like redirected by his dog and then like the other girl, jesse, who was here, she like got bit by like that morning. She's like, oh yeah, this dog bit me, you know. And it's like, yeah, when you have like these types of dogs, like that should just happen yeah, it's just what it is and you gotta just be okay with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and not be so twitchy, because that's the problem I I was becoming afraid of my dog and I was like being twitchy like a decoy is like that's a job as a decoy but not as a handler. So, anyways, we've come a long way, but we're deviating from the yeah, we're here to talk about you, alessandro, okay, okay I'm here, I'm still here um, tell us a little bit about yourself how you got into dog training.
Speaker 1:You have a pet business? Tell us all about that okay, perfect.
Speaker 2:So basically, um, first of all, I moved in barcelona because I was a bike rider, um, and I went there just to realize my dream and becoming a pro rider, and that moment arrived.
Speaker 1:But wait, mountain biking. Bmx riding that's so funny yeah that's why we hit it off.
Speaker 2:So well, okay, and I arrived there and after four years and a half I achieved sponsorship and this was fun. But fun went away because it was not the same I've dreamed when I was a kid. Okay, um, money went in and, yes, it stopped being something funny and it was just like a job a full-time job and it was not enjoying that so much.
Speaker 2:So basically, what happened is that my me and my girlfriend got the first pet dog and it was just the perfect pet. I was like, oh wow, like I had pet for my whole life and but this dog was something different. I was like, oh wow, this four months old dog can go in barcelona not scared of anything, just can hang out with him everywhere and the fun. And I was like, okay, let's, let's get another dog. And they had the fantastic idea to get a malinois. And we adopted this malinois and when she arrived she was a completely mess. She was dying, she has a bunch of behavioral issue and she was scared of everything. She was redirecting on people in the street.
Speaker 2:So it was a mess and so already before this I was starting starting a bit of dog training. I was working some French dog and everything and when I got this dog I was like, okay, this is not a normal pet, Like in Barcelona there was no Malinois at all, like no working dogs, so it was something new. And so I started studying, studying, do courses and just trying to read as much as I could for help out my dog because I was feeling so bad. She was super stressed. You could see that she was not enjoying like staying there. So we started building a relationship and I started understanding how to build communication with a working dog and how to have boundaries.
Speaker 2:What a crate was yeah because before we had no crate, so started teaching a dog what a crate is, what boundaries are, what leash pressure is, and all the advanced obedience and basic obedience have been just coming step by step in front of another and I started enjoying so much this dog and in the meanwhile I started working other dogs, and not just for fun, but making it a business out of it. And it was just the dream coming true because I was like, okay, I enjoyed this so much. I've just came out of bike riding and I could not feel that emotion anymore on riding and I was like I need to find something else because if not, it will be hard to woke up and be like, okay, I need to find something fun to do. And as soon as I got my mom, she was the one taking me out. Basically, she was like, okay, let's do stuff, let's do stuff. And she was just having me the whole time hyped up and for do stuff.
Speaker 2:So that was amazing and um, so we started working, working, working and we there started decoying a bit because I saw that she needed to bite and I was like she was biting me the whole time. She was biting my girlfriend and I was like, okay, we need to channel this energy somewhere. So we started to do some bite work and she basically started teaching me everything. In the meanwhile, before having my mom, I started following Mike. So I was just checking Mike's and I was like, oh my god, this is like a dream coming true. I also want to get beaten, like you know.
Speaker 4:I was not a decoy.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was like, oh, I just want to catch dogs and have fun and fight with dogs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:And so, slowly, slowly, I started with a small dog and then a sleeve, but I didn't really know how to build it. So it's just been a long journey until my, my dog, had a huge, huge problem on her knee and she dislocated her kneecap and she could not walk anymore and her kneecap would just go in left and right every time she was forcing it up, and so I had to bring her and have surgery. We have been like three or four months looking for a good vet in barcelona, but people is not, um, used to working dogs. So when I was showing up with them all, they were like, oh wow, this is a german shepherd. And I was like, okay, maybe it's not the right vet. Yeah, like they don't even know the breed and everything. So I was like, okay, and we've been through a bunch of vets and all them they were like, okay, no, she would just stay on a sofa for the rest of her life.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna, um, we can do surgery, we can open up and fix everything up, but then she would be just like a sofa dog and I was like just a pet and I was like no way, like these dogs, teach me everything I know, shared everything I have to learn from her and she shared with me so much. I was like no, no, no, I'm not gonna at two years old, I'm not gonna just retire, also because she could oh, she was only two she was only two.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it was a yes, so it was a mess. And finally we had this call with this vet and it was like the better of Barcelona blah, blah, blah, blah blah, a lot of talk, and we did the first surgery and after the first surgery she got infected. So basically the infection ate all the ligaments, the ACL and the meniscus and part of the kneecap. So she got into another surgery and I just wanted to talk to the doctor and the doctor was like disappeared. Yes, the hospital fired the doctor after the surgery on my dog and I had no option to just find him and and just have a talk with him, because he fucked up the dog oh my god, yes.
Speaker 2:So it's been a long journey with her and in the meanwhile I was working other dogs and I was. I was working my students dogs and my clients dogs, pets and working dogs and I was really enjoying that, and my girlfriend is also a dog trainer. So we're like let's open a proper school, like it was our dream since two or three years.
Speaker 2:Let's do it now yeah like everything is going good, we are flowing, so I just think this is gonna be the right moment for that. Uh, so we opened the school personal growth canine in barcelona um, and the name comes from our personal experience, because our dog basically give us an opportunity to grow so much mentally and just gave us an opportunity to just be a better person and just understand better what they need.
Speaker 2:And we saw that they were just there for help us, but not just physically, but also mentally yeah and it's been crazy because both our dogs the first dogs, the pets helped so much my girlfriend um, mentally, and my maluna did it with me. So on days where you know you don't feel like doing stuff and you're like, okay, I'm gonna lay on the bed I had, my Maluna was there and she was like I know let's do stuff so that's where the names come from and, yes, it's a little bit hard at the beginning was hard because, yes, we were just like 24 or something and everything was new.
Speaker 2:We're not from spain, so we didn't know how stuff worked and it's been just um a long start, but it's been amazing. Now everything is paying off, so it's really the best thing is just being able to help other dogs and help other people, getting to know better their dogs and having a better communication with them and just having more balanced dogs and save more dogs, because this is the most important thing. Barcelona is not easy to find a trainer that saves dogs' life, because it's just we have. I don't know if here it's the same, but you have just the extreme parts. So just or super positive, or the fake balance trainer where they just put prong colors and decolors on dogs and that fry them and just nap the neck.
Speaker 1:Just like the two extremes.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So basically, yeah, we are balanced trainers, actually balanced, exactly, actually balanced. We're not there for the dog and be like oh, in one session your dog is not pulling at the leash and your dog seat and your dog is not reactive anymore yeah, they're like getting blasted on like 100 on any caller and it's like your dog is trained, it's like no exactly like super fast, you see. Oh, I'm magic yeah, your dog is no longer reactive.
Speaker 1:It's like completely shut down.
Speaker 2:You're like, okay, yeah, and you see the dog just doing a hole on the ground and so going into it.
Speaker 1:What do you have to do to become a dog trainer in spain?
Speaker 2:um, so before everything was super easy.
Speaker 2:So that's why now it's a little bit harder, because before everybody was a dog trainer in Barcelona, so you can go to the park and you could have 30 dog trainers there yeah and everybody saying their words because maybe they they've been lucky with their dog one time once they just have a I don't know, a Labrador or a super low, dry dog, no, reactive, no, nothing. And they had a really good opportunity. Their dog can sit their dog can down. And they had a really good opportunity. Their dog can sit their dog can down. And then they're like okay, check, my dog goes off leash. I'm a trainer. So many times they just goes on the park and they're like, oh yes, I can help you out with your dog, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:And then it always ends like oh no, your dog can't get helped because there is lack of information and people doesn't actually work dogs right, but now it's more strict yes, now basically you will need to get two certification, uh, from the government and you will need to do a couple courses that you can just get into school of spain's. And, yes, you will have basically time till till September of 2025 to get them actually to have been put on a list of actually professional dog trainers. And that's cool, because then all the other people that will not study and don't want to grow, basically on the job, and they will just be cut off that would just be cut it off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is very interesting because that's always like a topic of conversation here is you know, dog training is so unregulated and that's often thrown at like people like me right, like I don't have a certification. So how do you feel about, you know, a government like mandated dog trainer certification? Do you think that actually helps dog trainers cases? Or is it one of those things where it's just force free and they're not actually teaching you like balance, you know, like do you think it does a good job of like weeding out the people who don't actually care?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. For me, you don't need a certification to be a dog trainer, because if you are able to work dog and you have experience and you actually work dog and you can help dogs and you can read dogs and you can build communication, you don't need any certification.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you have been so much in working dogs that you know how to do that. You know how to read a dog and that's the most important thing. Many times I've been doing many courses and many certifications and that was just useless.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel the piece of paper doesn't actually, you know, mean all that much.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that's the point.
Speaker 3:And even like going back to like the primal cert, like, okay, we're certified, but there's still so much progress to be done.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's what I love about dog training.
Speaker 1:I think it's the best job ever, but just because you never stop learning yeah that's the point, and it's not something that you for sure, you can study, you can read books, you can check youtube, but that's such a huge variety and nobody will teach you, as dog does I'm very fortunate in that, like I was very much in a bubble when I was learning dog training, so I started off as a dog walker and then I was just getting my hands on like a ton of dogs and I learned from the dogs and I learned from a lot of group work with dogs, where I feel like not a lot of dog trainers do that. But I'm really big on like I like putting dogs in a group and watching how they interact and learning from like when they correct, when you know another dog is loading up, like you really get to learn the dog's body language just by watching them like interact with each other. I feel like that's where I learned the most about dog training. Like I didn't really I didn't watch YouTube.
Speaker 1:Like I didn't watch videos. I didn't like learn in like the context of like a book. Essentially, like all of my learning just came from like getting my hands on dogs and I feel like I'm very grateful for that. But a lot of people will come to me and be like, oh well, how did you learn all of this? And I'm like you just got to get your hands on dogs and people are like that's horrible advice, like people shouldn't be training dogs unless you know like their experience and know what they're doing. But I think it's like you don't get the experience until you just do it.
Speaker 2:You know, absolutely, absolutely. Reading is so easy, but you will never find a book where you have all the scenarios also because every dog is different. Every dog is different. Every dog um have different temperament, different personalities, and that's not written on books, that's the main point I know.
Speaker 1:So, with the certification, I'm assuming you're in the process of like getting that absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah what kind of things are they teaching you in the certification?
Speaker 2:basically, one of the courses is like um becoming not a vet, but like um I don't know how it says on english but like pet health care yes, pet healthcare, and that's super cool. I think like. But the other course that I saw is all about body language and super positive training okay that? Yeah, that's cool, but that's not all, so that's the most important.
Speaker 3:So that's the other thing in spain right now, like tools are banned correct?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely Like if you are a private, you cannot put an e-collar or a prong collar or a slip lead on your dog.
Speaker 1:Wait, what do you mean if you are a private? Oh, if you're just like a regular owner, yes. If you're a regular owner If you're not a dog trainer yes absolutely.
Speaker 2:You cannot put the tools on your dog and from one side, I think that prong collar, slip lead, e-collar is not an everyday tool that you can just snap on your dog's neck and just start using that, because then you can shut down the dog or activate the dog even more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see that more so than I do. Like shutting dogs down, Like people are always like I'm scared to use a prong collar because my dog's going to shut down.
Speaker 4:I'm like that's not what worries me about a prong collar.
Speaker 1:You know they have like this reactive shepherd and I'm like that's not what's gonna happen with your dog yes, working like german shepherd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, I'm gonna put a prong collar and then snap it as soon as he's gonna bark oh yeah, good idea, go ahead, go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lights up more, yeah so what's the culture of dog ownership like there?
Speaker 2:okay. So basically in spain is arriving a super positive wave of dog trainers from the north of europe. So basically, two tools are banned. Are banned um crate. Don't even talk about that, because that's a jail for dogs.
Speaker 2:So that's basically the way people see crates and everybody that use them and it's many times it's hard to to tell to the students or clients why it's helpful for the dog and it's it's just a safer spot for the dog. Dogs needs that. Many times they're like, oh no, my dog destroy everything and then goes right under the table and I'm like, yeah, because the dog needs a safe spot in the house yeah and um, but yes, people in general sees dogs as babies.
Speaker 2:So basically, um, whenever the dog is scared, they pick him up. Or oh, another dog is coming by, wait, go far away because it might hurt you. You know, just being hyper protective over the dog and don't build boundaries, don't build relationship, because people think that having a dog is just like having like a lamp or something else. So, no, no, yeah, I know it's funny, but it's like that. So many people in barcelona is like, yeah, I have a dog. And I'm like, oh, yeah, cool, what do you do with your dog? And they're like, oh, we cuddle in the sofa and like, oh, what is a real dog? Or like a toy or something like that. Oh, no, no, I have a malinois, but he's reactive outside. You know, he doesn't like people or he doesn't like other dogs. They try to kill everybody on the street and I'm like, yes, because it's a working dog and dogs in general doesn't need cuddles, like we think.
Speaker 2:For sure, that can be a part of the day and the journey, but dogs need to channel all that energy somewhere and they need to work in general or do activities with their handler, and that's not staying on a sofa and just chilling there and do the block walk and go around the street and then come back for a pee in the pool and then straight back home. For sure, the dog is going to destroy everything. But then, yeah, there's a bunch of trainers that are like oh yeah, I checked a couple of videos on YouTube and now I'm a dog trainer. So, yes, you just need to reward the dog when he's doing good and if he eats something, no, don't worry.
Speaker 1:Just ignore him. Yeah, yeah, just ignore it. It'll go away, don't don't look at him.
Speaker 2:don't look at him, turn the other way around, because then he will feel bad and then he will stop. Yep, yep, yeah, so wild. It's kind of like this. And then for sure you have the two ways, like the super positive trainer. They're like oh no, with a puppy, for sure, do not correct him, just reward him for the good things.
Speaker 2:But don't even ask to a handler to put a dog on a leash in the house, because people there is like, oh no, let your dog fail and then he will understand with time. Or when he was going to be like two or three years old. He's going to grow up and he's going to stop. Is going to be like two or three years old, he's going to grow up and he's going to stop. And many times when I'm like, okay, you have a working dog or working like puppy or a normal puppy and did destroy everything. Put a leash on your dog in the house, like, just set him for success, wow, but the whole time with the leash in my house, oh my God, I don't want to do that. And I'm like, yeah, but next time just check a better dog that fits for you and not a dog that you want.
Speaker 2:It looks pretty, because that's the main issues in Barcelona and in Spain in general. People look at films or Instagram or Facebook and they see this Malinois, super trained, doing sport, doing crazy stuff, and they're like, oh, I'm going to buy one and I think they come straight straight off the box like that yeah, pre-programmed, yes, you put the usb in and it works like a robot yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like oh, check your dog, fuck who's ill for sure. How can I teach that in the middle of distractions?
Speaker 1:can you give me some tips like they have like a reactive malinois and they're like I want my dog to look like that and you're like well, first let's work through the reactivity. You know. Yes, yes, yes, and communication first, yeah we'll get to that in like two years Two years maybe and they're like two years.
Speaker 2:It's not something we can fix in one session, you crazy. And I'm like, no, it takes time what it takes time to train a dog. It's not something you can train him in like one hour or two. And I'm like your dog has been reacting for five years. You want to take it out in one hour. Oh, no, no, no, no, not working like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you are the trainer that people go to when they've like tried other trainers, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. Most of the times we are like people arrive to us where they have been through five, six to even eight trainers and they've been just like oh no, your dog, you can do nothing with him. You can just or bring him back to the shelter or bring him back to the breeder or just euthanize him. Yeah. So yeah, pretty sad, because we've been in many cases of people that is like, oh yeah, the trainer or the behaviorist told us that the dog needs to get shut down.
Speaker 1:Talk to us about that Malinois client that you had OK.
Speaker 2:The horrible advice OK so we have these students that now became is doing his own way to become a dog trainer, because he felt in love with the process that we did. And basically, um, these clients arrived to us with a four months, um, old puppy, a malinois, a real good one, like, if somebody knows about sports dogs, that would be perfect for french ring or something. And, um, he arrived to me because he was like, yeah, I've been to another trainer and this trainer told me that I need to pick up my dog, bring him out, go from my apartment till the dog park let him down, carry his arms yes, absolutely, he had to pick him up.
Speaker 2:Pick him up because the dog was reactive, so he had to carry him till the to the, to the dog park where he was getting tired, and then carry him like, picking him up again from the dog park, carry him till home, and he was like a 17 pounds malinois. So you can imagine what he's doing. Like three kilometers with a malinois, with a reactive malinois 101 how to get dead in the face. Yes, absolutely. And the guy was like, please, I can't do it anymore. And he was and he showed me like his legs were all beaten, his arm was all beaten. The dog has been um one time. He was just walking in the center of barcelona and this girl was like this trainer just said to him no, uh, you need to put a harness on and the 10 meters leash and for sure. He went in the city center full of distraction and the dog attacked one of the first person that he had been that had in front of him and then police came and he had a bunch of problem by that. But luckily the guy started crying and he was like I don't know what to do with this dog. It's just a puppy and please don't take him away from me, because I just had him and just trying to learn.
Speaker 2:And then he arrived to us and we started building communication. We started teaching him what leash pressure is with the two leashes so imagine one is not even snapping the dog head. Because the first thing that I think is just to build communication and a good relationship with the dog. So basically we started teaching to him how to play. He was super nervous and we started building relationship with the handler first, and then we started building communication, because for us it's super important to first build a relationship with a dog, because not that they come out of the box and they're just gonna be like oh I love you, wow, please pet me and stay with me the whole time. No, because we all know that when we work with working dogs they're not pets. And then we started building communication to leash pressure and now, after I think it's a year or something, the dog goes off leash in parks and he can just live his better life.
Speaker 1:A dog that probably would have been euthanized with any other trainer?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:So do you see that a lot since there are so many force-free trainers? Do you see a lot of dogs getting euthanized because people aren't willing to do balanced training?
Speaker 2:Absolutely or that or dragged.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We have a bunch of clients that are like, oh yes, but the previous trainer told me that I need to drag the dog so it's going to calm down, and I'm like that's not the way. Like if you have a kid that has a bunch of energy, are you going to drag him or are you actually?
Speaker 3:going to do that as well, that's crazy for me.
Speaker 2:That's, that's it like, and that's the same for dogs. They treat their dogs like their kids. But I'm like, would you drag your kids? Would you prefer to drag your kids?
Speaker 3:then, like exercise them and like fulfill them exactly I mean we kind of live in a society that does that, you know, yes, and it's so sad. Absolutely like I mean like I was like diagnosed with like adhd or whatever, and they were like, oh, let's give me, give your kid riddle. And you know, my parents like no, let's just exercise more.
Speaker 2:Like exactly run, boy run and mike in the backward run faster faster, and now we're here.
Speaker 3:I genuinely believe that like.
Speaker 4:I genuinely believe that a lot of dog owners nowadays don't actually want dogs. They just want cats that look like dogs yes like they want. They want to be able to like cuddle them and hold them when they want, but then like the dog like fuck off when they're like over it. You know what I mean. Like they don't actually want to take the time to like build the dog and like spend time with it, create that bond and like you know, she was.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but, like you know, like actually have a relationship with their, with their dog, Right, like it's very much like on their terms when they want it, rather than like hey, like this is like not just a thing, right?
Speaker 3:like it's, like you said earlier, like it's not a lamp yeah, like it's.
Speaker 4:It's very much like it's mutual right, like your dog wants to please, but like, at the same time, like you have to also please it yeah, right, like you have to.
Speaker 1:What you guys were talking about earlier is, like you guys very much, you have to very much like satiate the dog and like nurture its drive and, like you know, fulfill it yeah, I always tell, like all of my trainers and everybody that I'm teaching, I'm like your job is teaching non-animal people how to live with animals, because owning a dog has become so trendy that like everybody just owns a dog because they think that's like what they should do. Meanwhile, like half the people who have dogs should not have dogs like they should have a cat.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You don't need a dog, you need a cat.
Speaker 2:Or a couple of fishes, yeah, literally A couple of what's the name of the red fish, A goldfish? Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know that like egg test where, like they give you an egg and you have to like not break it for a week, like that should be the test before you like get a dog you know, Take care of this egg.
Speaker 3:So, basic yeah.
Speaker 2:But yes people in.
Speaker 2:Spain. Many times it's like, oh, I need to walk the dog, like two, three times per day, and like, yes, do you go outside Like, do you hang out Also by yourself, you don't need to go with people. But do you hang out Like, do you go grab a coffee sometimes or do you go to work, yep. So it's really hard and I have been. I had cases that I had one dog that this girl has just hit on me up it. I had one dog that this girl has just eaten me up.
Speaker 2:It was an old woman and she was like oh, I have this border collie that pulls a lot in the street. Can we do a first session? I was like, yeah, for sure, I would be happy to help him out. So she's like, okay, I can't go downstairs with a dog, so you better come upstairs. And I was like, yeah, yeah, first class, for sure we will do in the house, because I need to check out how the house is.
Speaker 2:And I go inside and this border collie tried to attack me. I opened the door and I was like, okay, okay, so the dog is really nervous and he escaped. He escaped and went under the table and I was like, okay, let me check real quick. The house was a mess like. I was like, oh my god, this poor dog, what's going on in here? And I started talking with this woman and that was like, okay, please tell me more about the dog. And she was like, okay, so before he was really good, he was always off leash outside in the street and, um, yeah, when I was recalling him like five or six times, he was coming back. But then, yes, he was attacking other dogs and stuff and I was like you never heard about long leashes and or flexi or I don't know.
Speaker 3:Just some form of control, exactly just some communication, yes, whatever was good.
Speaker 2:And she was like no, but you know what happened? It was like may, so it was super hot too. And she and I was like when is the last time that? Like, your last walk was this morning. And she was like oh, um, I'm not gonna say to you. And I was like why? Like it was yesterday. She was like uh, no, because since he started pulling that much on the leash, um, I didn't walk him anymore. He's like what so? Since what? So since when? And she was like, oh, some weeks. And I was like how many weeks? And she was like well, actually it was Christmas. I was like Christmas, it's May.
Speaker 2:Like where is your dog peeing and pooing? Like what's your dog doing during the day? She was like no, that's because he's so stressed that I cannot bring him outside. So I just this girl, this woman, has like two cats and I was like but Border Collie is not a cat and living in a small apartment in Barcelona city center. I was like what is this dog doing? And I was like, okay, we need to do some work then where was the dog going to the bathroom?
Speaker 2:oh, I don't know, and she was like maybe in the terrace sometimes and maybe in the apartment.
Speaker 3:I was like in the house, in the house and I was like what are you even saying?
Speaker 2:like?
Speaker 3:it's really crazy what people are willing to live with like accept and before they actually like come and go see a trainer yes, but do you know what's the problem?
Speaker 2:we started with the first session and I was like, okay, so we start feeding him by hand, we start having a positive association to the leash, we start recalling him in the house and rewarding that, for example. And the dog was so stressed and I was like, so I don't know, you can start opening the windows and let the dog listen what the noises outside looks like and then reward whenever he has a positive or or he's engaging with you and just rewarding that and having fun with the dog. So we started with some luring, some fun, some recalls in the house, and and then I also felt super bad, so I just gave two hours classes and I was like, no, no, I need to help out this dog and this antler and show her that this is a mess like yeah it's not a life for a dog.
Speaker 2:And um, she disappeared basically because she was like okay, wait, I will work on my, my homework, blah blah, blah, blah blah. And after one week I follow up and I was like, hey, how's the dog doing? Not even you, how's the dog doing like you are working him? She was like, oh, but I'm working a lot and I was like, why do you even have a dog like?
Speaker 1:that like I feel like that's like abuse absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's abuse and I was like, okay, but or we need to keep going with the training or we need to do something with your dog, like yeah I can take it like no problem.
Speaker 2:And she was like, no, no, let's train him, let's train him. And after three weeks, um, we had a second class. And she was like, no, no, let's train him, let's train him. And after three weeks we had a second class and she was like, okay, are we going outside today? And I was like, yeah, you've been working with the dog. Did you start working on showing him what a leash is? And she was like oh, yes, for sure, check.
Speaker 2:And the girl just pop out the leash. And the dog looked at the leash and started growling. That was like he didn't do shit with the dog and she was like, oh, no, but he always does like that. And I was like, uh, try to keep the leash on him. And I was like reinforcing the leash, blah, blah, letting the dog engage with the leash and rewarding.
Speaker 2:And she was like, oh, you make it look so easy. And I was like you just need to call the dog, let the dog looks at the leash and then reward that. And she was like, okay, let me try. And so she tried for a bit and then we could put the leash on the dog and we started walking in the house and she was like oh so we're not going in the street today? And I was like your dog hates you. Hey, the leash. Where do you want to go? Like city center of barcelona, with people screaming, kids running bicycle and motorcycle everywhere, police, ambulance, like you're just not there yet you're not there yet, exactly and I was like you want to go outside?
Speaker 2:I'm I'm not a magician, isn't it interesting?
Speaker 1:that people lie about, like practicing the stuff with their dog, like that always gets me, and like I'm very casual with the people you know, like I would never like make somebody feel bad, because I think like you have to look at it as like behavioral change for the owner too. Right?
Speaker 1:so if you like guilt them and you're like, what are you doing? You know, then they're never going to call you back and you're not going to help that dog. So I always try to like play it off like very lightly. But my big thing is like, using the e-caller we would get a lot of like aggressive pit bulls that are just like monster dogs and to have any control over them, like they have to have the e-collar on.
Speaker 1:You know, and it's like yes like this is a necessary for this dog to live with you, basically, and I would do like follow-up sessions with some of our clients and I'd be like, oh, are you using the e-caller? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, okay, turn it on they don't even know how to pair the remote to the caller and I'm like show me how you turn it on and they're like like shaking and I'm like, yeah, you haven't been using the e-caller, like and it's it's always like they call me meg, the training isn't working and I don't know what to do anymore.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, okay, and I'll come over and I do like a follow-up lesson and like show me how to turn the e-collar on. And they can't. And I'm like, why lie you know? Like just be honest, I'm not gonna, like you know, make you feel bad, but like I need to actually know like what's going on. So that is always like very interesting to me when you're just there to like help people and help the dog, and it's like and being kind.
Speaker 2:This is the most important thing, because we're not here for earth handlers or hold any feeling of anybody. We're here for help the dog. Yeah, that's my mission. Like for sure, I like people and everything, but I'm here for working dogs and helping dogs like and for sure, helping the handler to know better the dog, to know how to communicate and work the dog and fulfill the necessity of the dog but so whatever happened to her, um, she just disappeared, she just stopped responding to you yeah, yeah, she just stopped responding and I was like, okay, I need to do something for a dog and we just keep and just keep checking on her and be like, hey, how's the dog doing?
Speaker 2:is it still there? What are you doing with the dog? Is it on shelter? What are you doing with the dog actually? Yeah I'm just waiting for response and that's just checking up on the dog.
Speaker 1:But yep, it's not an easy situation to deal with no, so what's some advice that you would like dog owners to like take in?
Speaker 2:okay, so first what people should do in general, but I think in spain, it's about understanding how to select the right breed for them so before you even get a dog, oh, absolutely, make sure that you research yes, many times when we have people coming to us and be like, hey, I want to get a malinois, and I'm like, okay, what's your daily looks like?
Speaker 2:and they're like, oh yeah, I work um eight to six. Then I go back home and I lay on the sofa and I'm like, maybe a Malinois is not the right choice for you and maybe I don't know any dog a toy poodle a toy poodle?
Speaker 2:yes, exactly, exactly, or yes, absolutely, that would. That would be the best. And I'm like, um, yes, but because? But? Because many people in Spain in general looks at dogs as objects. So if some kind of breed just pop out and everybody has it and they see some cool stuff from Instagram or social media, they will be like, oh, I want to get that dog, and thinking that they're just phones or something like or a video game or something, and it's not like that.
Speaker 2:So basically we always push and help the clients or students to find the right breed for them and basically we help them through the process and in case, many times we help, we have them also looking for the puppy and the breeder or the shelter, because many times what happened?
Speaker 2:The people get malinois. They go to trainers they cannot train a dog and they're like, okay, or I will abandon them or I will bring him to a shelter and just leave it there. Yeah, so we always are like, okay, check both options and then absolutely build a good relationship first, but also a good structure from the beginning, from the first day, like what a great training is, but just to create a little bit that separation that you need for avoid the separation anxiety in some few months and just building a structure in the house and just enjoying the puppy, but but not, it's not a kid. Yeah, so that's the one of the most important part for us your dog will never be your kid. We can love them as our kids, absolutely Like I think everybody's agree, like I love my dog as they're my kids, but they're animals and if you don't work with them or you don't train them, will act like animals.
Speaker 2:Yes, and what's gonna happen? In a huge city, they're gonna bite people. If you have a spicy dog, we all know what's gonna happen yep you will never be able to go to a park. We are never gonna be able to unleash your dog and give the freedom they deserve so it's all about creating a solid structure and building that relationship since day one and not waiting six or seven years of reactivity to then be like, oh, maybe I need to train my dog, and then wanting to solve everything in like one or two sessions.
Speaker 1:I always tell people it's like a scale right. So if you've tipped the scale in one direction so many times and for so long, then you need that many more reps doing the opposite thing. So if you have, like a reactive dog that has been reacting for three years, you've gotten a lot of reps tipping the scale towards reactivity, so now we have to get more reps, your dog not being reactive in those situations, you know. So people think that training or like board and trains is like some overnight fix. But it's not. It's like it gives you. I always tell people we teach the language you know, and I think we kind of look at dog training very similarly, about teaching communication systems, like that's really all we're doing as dog trainers and then from there it's up to the owners to use those communication systems to do the things with their dog you know and practice the skills.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I get a lot of. Well, I don't want to say that I used to get a lot of like backlash from the force free community because I use tools and I think, just because of who I am and my audience I was I was very much like the, the person that introduced balance training to a lot of people. Right, so I was the person who you know. People have gone to a million other force free trainers and they're still struggling with their behavioral dog and so they look into other routes. I'm usually that like initial trainer, so I feel like I'm kind of at the forefront of getting heat from a lot of like force-free trainers and, speaking to you, it kind of sounds like the same like, since you're that person in your community that is advocating for balanced training and is taking these dogs on that no one else is willing to take on, that would most likely get euthanized if it weren't for balanced training. Do you find that you get a lot of heat from like the community of trainers in your area?
Speaker 2:absolutely trainer that doesn't even knows me goes around saying that I come from some kind of schools that where they maltreat dogs or abuse of dogs sorry, not maltreat abuse where this trainer abused dogs and they're like, oh no, he comes from there, he put brown collars on dogs and he collars and shock the dog. And to my clients then, and my clients are like, hey, I went to that, to that pet shop, and they say that you have, they don't even know your name, but you snap your dogs and like, basically, shock your dog for letting them behave. And I'm like what? And many times I receive many messages from trainers or people in general that they're like oh, boo, your dogs check, they focus ill, they train. Oh my God, they're such a robot, you're so cruel with them. They would just deserve to stay free in the nature the whole time, sniff the whole time and not respond to recall, because they are animals and they need to be free and they need freedom. And I'm like yes, but the best freedom you can give them is train them.
Speaker 2:And many times I'm like okay, everybody's good to talk. Many people um talk a lot and nobody um work dogs. So basically, that's what. What happened? A lot in spain the scene that we have. So what I always do is like okay, I have no issue with anybody, like, I just think that the dog training world and trainers should just be like a huge family, because we are all here to help dogs, nothing more than that. It's normal that we all train different, but let's take tips and let's get some work on all together and check where we can get better. No many times people, what happens in Spain is that they already think that they know everything.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I'm like how many dogs you worked? Like they're like yo, 10, 15. And I'm like 15 dogs and I was like, and you know everything? And I was like, okay, if you feel good with that, perfect, yeah. Like I'm still learning and I'm enjoying so much the process of learning and working new dogs and just checking how different dogs have changed their behavioral in different situation depending on their personality. Oh wow, for me that's amazing and it's just like a source of learning that never stops. And many times I'm always answering like okay, it's so easy to run our mouths, but run your dog like let's go and grab a coffee without tools, without harnesses, without long leashes, whose dogs are better for sure which dogs are happier, not, not even better.
Speaker 2:I don't care about that, because for them, maybe, uh, the best dog would be a dog that sniffed the whole time on the ground, that doesn't engage with them, and for them the handler doesn't exist, they're just pulling around and barking at everybody. For them, maybe, that's cool. That's the perfect dog, because that's a real animal and I'm like, okay, then take it out and let's go and grab a coffee.
Speaker 3:Can the dog function in society?
Speaker 2:Exactly. No, no, no. Many trainers don't train dogs in Barcelona because they think it's cruel to have a dog in a city, so they basically don't even accept that kind of dogs. So that's the saddest part that's wild yep, yep. They're like, oh, where you live, and they're like, oh, in barcelona city center. And the trainer is like, oh, no, then why you? Why do you even get a dog if you live in barcelona city?
Speaker 3:you're an animal abuser, you should not have a dog, and I'm like I mean, because you literally cannot have a dog in a city if it's not trained, you know, just pulling you around and like there's traffic, like yeah obviously that doesn't work, but with boundaries the dog can very well live happily absolutely with the structure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, teaching a dog what the hill command is and teaching a dog what the free command is make a huge difference yeah, because at the end of the day, like the dogs, are living in a human, in a very human world. Yeah, no, absolutely, and that's the most important things. We want to have dogs, and dogs are not made for staying in a city Like let's be clear.
Speaker 2:Dogs are not meant to stay in the Barcelona city center, where there's no trees, no nothing. And then you don't pretend even to train him to stay there and to get him used to stay there and teach them how to behave there.
Speaker 3:No, just like you end up with the border collie that's stuck in an apartment.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and people don't think that's abuse. That's the worst part, because many times they're like, oh no, but then if the dog feels comfortable in the whole in the house, then you have no issue, just leave him in his babble and I'm like what, like what? Your kid doesn't want to go out of the room and you're going to be like, oh, poor kid, let him there, bring him food, bring him water, and they're just it stresses him out.
Speaker 1:And that brings up an interesting topic, because like that's kind of their argument is like, oh, you know tools which I don't think they do but tools like stress dogs out Right, and it's like people are so just scared of of anything that makes us uncomfortable, anything that makes our dogs uncomfortable. But just think about like working out Right, like even this weekend that you guys did, like that was so fulfilling for you and it was uncomfortable, like it was really really, really, really difficult. You know, like the biggest breakthroughs that you have with yourself and in dog training comes from getting uncomfortable and working through it absolutely, but it's, it's everyday life.
Speaker 2:So let's, let's get the normal person that live in a huge city that people will feel stressed, will feel uncomfortable, and and that's cool. We need to work through it because, if not as persons, not even as animals, as person, we need to understand how to channel all that energy and all that stress somewhere and we need to fulfill what like basically all the energy that we have, because, if not, it will be hard for us to mentally being able to stay on certain kind of situation. And that's what's the where the issue come from, because, oh, no, I don't want my dog to feel stressed. No, your dog need to feel stressed at some point.
Speaker 2:You need to build that, obviously, because it's not that, oh, first day we go on the street, we we put the dog on a prong collar and we snap the neck and we snap his head off. No, absolutely, that doesn't work. You need to build that and it's something that takes time. But then your dog needs to slowly, slowly, start understanding how to channel these emotions in the proper behave and be like okay, I'm in the middle of the people, I don't like that, but wait, there's my handler over here. This is fun because whenever I engage with my handler, something pop out or just like I'm with him, I'm in a safe spot, nothing can hurt me here and I don't need to be scared and just let the dog understand that whenever he's in a stressful situation, he just can engage with you and like stay with you and go through that stress situation together. I think that's just the best. But many people don't want to work through that because it's a lot of work. That's the point. Yes, and many people.
Speaker 4:I think part of the problem is just like today's culture in general, right like everyone's, so like instant gratification, that like they just want to get it one and done, yeah everything has to be now, rather than like putting in the time and the effort, like dogs aren't computers, we're not downloading a software as trainers and be like cool, here you go, here's your dog back, and they just know what to do now. Like they're not computers, a software as trainers and be like cool, here you go, here's your dog back, and they just know what to do now. Like they're not computers, like we have to. It's again, they're animals, they're. It's going to take continuous training, continuous maintenance and like time and effort to continue to progress them. Just like.
Speaker 4:If people actually like, in my opinion, if people actually treated their dogs like their kids, dogs would be so much better behaved like. Just like you discipline your kids when necessary if they do something wrong or something bad. How is that? How are your dogs any different? Right like your, your, your kid grows up, they stay in a crib. Right as they grow up, then they get the bedroom yeah, and as they get their bedroom, then your curfew.
Speaker 4:You have a curfew as you get older. That curfew then gets lifted. Right, you implement structure for your kids. Why is that so hard to comprehend for your dog?
Speaker 1:but I think people aren't doing that with their kids anymore that's. That's probably also very true, like the whole like gentle parenting thing of like you know, that is such a thing never telling your kid no, like yeah, I, where were we?
Speaker 1:where we were like walking down the sidewalk and like this little girl was like throwing a temper tantrum, like in the middle of the sidewalk and me and tomah are like walking down the sidewalk with like dogs and this little girl is like standing there, like screaming, and her mom is trying to like gentle parent her to like move and it's like what a two-year-old, like a baby, that's like just old enough to stand, and she was like tell me how you feel. And it's like bro, grab your child and move them off the middle of the sidewalk, like it was a busy street and it's like, oh, my gosh, you you know, watch out, it's dangerous.
Speaker 2:Your kid might be mentally damaged for life after moving.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, and I think it like I don't know, I'm very lucky. Like I feel like we have really good clients. Like the clients that we had in Florida were like Florida is kind of its own, its own, its own planet. Like I definitely think the people here in California are much softer than in Florida. You know, like we didn't get as much of that of like the gentle parenting stuff.
Speaker 1:Like a lot of my clients are like very okay with e-callers. Like I was telling you that earlier that like my biggest battle is usually just like the crate, because people like want to be with their dogs 24 seven and they just like don't want to put them away and I'm like they need a nap. Like wouldn't you love a nap? I would love if somebody came up to me and was like hey, there's a dark room down the hallway Like go take a nap. I'd be like, bless you know, go take a nap in there.
Speaker 1:But you know, know, as far as like the e-callers go and like having meaningful no, I'm very lucky that, like a lot of my clients are like yeah, of course, like that makes sense, but I I farouk is shaking his head like it it's very much a cultural thing, like in a regional thing, like depending on where you live, and like spain sounds very much like northern california, you know like the clientele here, have a very hard time like fathoming, like correcting your dog yeah it's so much like again what I said earlier, like, oh, like I don't want to hurt my baby, like that's my child, like I don't, but realistically it's like like I don't, but realistically it's like the way I kind of think about.
Speaker 4:It is like, if it comes down to either life or death for my dog, because in certain circumstances it can be right, like right. If a dog barges out of the door and like, runs into oncoming traffic, that's its life, right, right, like would I rather correct my dog and understand and have my dog understand boundaries and thresholds and things like that, or would I rather have it run out into the street and die? Like if I have to, I'd rather have to correct my dog than have my dog lose its life, right, right. And like some people, especially here unfortunately just can't fathom that. They just that.
Speaker 1:That doesn't register in their head and I, yeah, well yeah, well, I mean, it sounds like it's challenging to work through. Yeah, and it sounds like it's that way in spain too, like dogs are getting euthanized over, like being corrected absolutely, yeah, people feel so bad.
Speaker 2:People feel better to drug their dog or euthanize them and and not to correct them. They're like oh no, poor dog, why, why should I correct my dog? Yeah like I feel so bad for it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like I mean in an ideal world, like obviously you wouldn't want to right. But like.
Speaker 1:No one likes correct, no one likes correcting yeah, like, but this isn't a perfect world.
Speaker 4:The world isn't sunshines and rainbows, like you were saying. Right like it's. It's hard, shit happens.
Speaker 1:Right like we deal with stress on a day-to-day basis and we work through it and also like we live with consequences you know like if I go 100 down the street, I'm gonna get pulled over and I'm gonna get a fat ticket, you know so I feel like the crib to room to curfew is a pretty good analogy though.
Speaker 3:Because, for the most part, I think, like that's most people stop bringing regardless Right After that. How you correct and what tools you implement, that's another story. But even then, like just as basic as that, like setting up a good structure of like putting your puppy in a crate will lead to less like problems down the line and potentially with most pets like you, won't even need to correct them.
Speaker 1:If you like, set a good foundation to begin with, exactly or even like, not even just puppies, even with, like, rescue dogs, like when you first get a dog, like you're establishing the relationship like day one. And this is something that, like, you and I talked about with River because, like, when we got River, he was sick and we weren't making him go into the crate, right, and then he felt better and he was like I'm not going into the crate and it's like no, you have to go into the crate because you're destroying the inside of my van and this is becoming unsafe now. So you have to go into the crate. And he's like uh, that's not what we did, you know. And so now he's like giving me pushback to go into the crate and it's like damn well, we should have just like made him go into the crate from day one.
Speaker 3:So it's like I mean, he was on the brink of death, so it's a different story, I know I know, but it's like it's still like people do that, you know.
Speaker 1:Or people get rescue dogs and they feel bad for them and so they don't create them and they sleep in bed with them and then they have this like aggressive dog. That's like resource guarding the bed, you know like absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think it's a different story if you just have a new shelter dog that you absolutely don't know and you just let them loose in the house yeah, but like, even, just like tools aside.
Speaker 1:If you want to train that dog like force free, fine. But just even creating a dog when you first get it, like is gonna so valuable so valuable and I mean it's just gonna change things just to be clear with river.
Speaker 3:I mean, he was still in a van, like a small confined space, and he was tethered, so it's not like he can get into shit no, and I mean he wasn't like, he was just laying on his bed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because he didn't like feel good. But now and I'm not saying that he's like bad or like aggressive at all, but like he's a big dog and you try to, he's doing good now, like he gets in now. But I have to be like River, you're such a good boy, go into the crate. He's like I am a good boy and good boy. And then he like jumps in. But if you're like river crate, he's like actually no, and then he like tries to run away and you like get dragged on the leash and all this stuff. But it's like yeah, I mean he did kind of get away with it in the beginning you know for sure.
Speaker 1:But like people get like tone just they'll rescue a dog and then that day they'll like sleep in bed with it, and it's like this aggressive pit bull, that's like you know. And it's like bro, why are you sleeping in bed with this dog?
Speaker 3:And that becomes that dog's whole personality of like oh, he had such a terrible life and upbringing, but you don't even know that. You know, yeah, absolutely. And then, oh, because of that, we'll never correct him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what happens in Spain. He just needs love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what's happening in spain. In spain, people in barcelona, just closest because I work in barcelona, but we have clients all over spain. So what happened that? Uh, many times we're like, oh, I just adopted this dog from the shelter, poor dog, he was on a crate I rescued him.
Speaker 2:He for sure has been traumatized since he was a puppy and for sure has been kicked and the dog is the most confident dog you can see out there and I'm like this dog has been what. Like, are you sure about what you're talking about? Yes, because the shelter told me that he's a poor puppy and then first days out they chill. Two days after that start attacking people, attacking other dog, and they're like I don't know they switched one day to the other. I just brought them home, let their sleep with me, uh, gave them food the whole day and I don't know why they just feel flipped.
Speaker 4:They're like yeah, dog got used there and be like okay, no party time yeah oh my gosh, I think people have such a hard time like, and they like, anthropomorphize dogs so much to the point that, like, at the end of the day, they forget that like they're not human, like they don't have the same feelings and emotions, like dogs are very binary creatures, like they're very much like black and white. It's like positive or negative. What are my associations? I've associated certain things positively, those things I like. I've associated certain things negatively, those things I like. I've associated certain things negatively, those things I don't like. Like I know you guys get it in the sense that, like you know, for example, like our dogs, they're so chill in the crate, like they go in just fine, they chill, they decompress and they just hang out. But like for a lot of people, they, they just can't fathom that Right and because it's like oh, it's a small confined area.
Speaker 4:My dog's in jail, yeah, and it's very much just like, well, no, like it's again how you associate it, right. It's like if you put the dog in there and just shove it in there and force it in and all of a sudden you shut the crate door and you're gone for eight hours like, yeah, the dog's gonna freaking hate it, right. But like if you positively associate it, like hey, there's a reason why you're in there. This is your safe space, this is your bedroom, this is where you go to decompress after a long day of hard work, right? Just like people come home from work and you want to go into your bedroom or you want to go and hang out on your couch and that's your safe space. The crate should be implemented the same way.
Speaker 1:And again, people just can't like understand that I do think and we were speaking about this earlier for me, I think the culture has changed, at least in the us, and I think it's because of, like our generation here is like taking the time to actually research dogs, right, like a lot of us aren't having kids and so we're kind of getting dogs in replacement of kids.
Speaker 1:But I've seen a huge shift from when I first started, like it was very dog mommy you know very much like what you're talking about in spain. But I do think now, like it has shifted a lot and just in like my social media, like I'm not really getting attacked for like the same things that I used to say, you know, because it's like it's become understood, it's become the norm. More so, and I think it's because our generation has kind of like grown up and become the adults. I think, um, like the generation above me was more so in the camp of that of like anthropomorphizing dogs as like babies and really, just like you know, dressing them up and like giving them endless cuddles all day, like that's all that they need I will say there's nothing wrong with dressing up your dog in a costume.
Speaker 4:by the way, like I'm not hating on anybody just passed, not hating, we had a bite night and literally every dog was dressed up as like a shark.
Speaker 1:It's so cute yeah, but that's different. You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 4:No, I do.
Speaker 1:It's like people who don't train their dogs and they're like he just needs cuddle and it's like this aggressive dog and you're like, um, maybe not, maybe not our priorities, maybe not our priorities. But I don't know like it's interesting to hear you speak about like what's going on in spain, because I feel like it's you know we're moving away from that, and it could also just be. I've been in the industry long enough so I'm not like seeing it as much anymore. But even you were kind of speaking about like you think it might get worse absolutely like with this new, um super positive way from the north of europe.
Speaker 2:Um, what's happening now is that even crate is getting like banned because people in north of europe think that crates are jails for their, for dogs, and the dogs doesn't need that. And, for example, what happened to me this is my personal case when I was living in city center of Barcelona, for sure, we had four dogs in one apartment, three working dogs, but everybody, all the dogs had the structure in the house. So basically they were crate, trained and everything, but what happened? In barcelona there's a lot of um criminals and people used to break into the houses and change the keys and then selling that what yes?
Speaker 2:yep, yep and that's legal, like um yep, that's the funniest part. So, basically, what happened? Uh, many times. What happened is that people would just come in past your door and try to open it and see if it was easy to open, and my dogs were, for sure, barking Like I think that's kind of normal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we were living in the first flat, so people could see what like inside our house, basically, and I had my crates and one of the person that was living in the same block one day took a picture of my crates with my dog sleeping inside and printed that and started putting that around the whole block saying that there was people abusing on dogs in this house and blah, blah, blah. And I was like what are you even saying? Like, first, I'm a dog trainer, my girlfriend is a dog trainer, we have a dog training business in this house, and blah, blah, blah, and I was like what are you even saying? Like my, my I'm first, I'm a dog trainer, my girlfriend is a dog trainer, we have a dog training business and, uh, we work working dogs, like we have been also working police dogs here I would fight somebody and I was like, what are you even doing?
Speaker 2:and this guy was just like going around the block and touching these kind of papers around and also inside my, like outside of the door of my apartment, and I could not see the guys doing that, but I could just see that every 10 or 15 minutes there was like a new poster outside and I was like, fuck, I will wait now. I will wait here because I want to see who this guy is and talk to him and offer him a coffee and let him check my dogs, and not even to go into a fight, because for sure, this kind of people doesn't even know what an abused dogs are. So I waited and I heard the doors downstairs opening and I stepped outside and I saw these guys attacking the post and like running away because he saw me. So I started walking on his back and this guy was running, running, running and he was living on the same block, so it was like three doors away and I was like walking to his door and he could not find the keys and he was like, oh fuck, he's coming, he's coming, he's coming.
Speaker 2:And I was staring at him and like, do you want to talk? Do you need help? Man Like him and like do you want to talk? Do you need help? Man like I'm happy to help. If you need to talk with somebody, I'm here. Like you want to come up, we take a coffee? And he just started almost getting super anxious and he could not even put the keys on the door and open the door. And I was looking at him and he was like man, really do you need some help? Like I will be here, I will be super happy. And then I called the police because I was like I'm a dog trainer. I cannot have this kind of guy just posting this kind of bullshit. Sorry, but this kind of bullshit around.
Speaker 2:I was like, and the police just said, oh, you can't do nothing, like, there you're. The exact words was like, uh, in the picture we can't even see your girlfriend naked, so we can't do stiff stuff. And I was like what, like what? Like you're a police officer? One guy took a picture inside of my house and you say you can't do shit because you can't see nobody naked in the picture. Like you crazy. He was like no, what you can do, do you know the name of the guy? And I was like, no, like in this block lives I don't know three, four hundred person. Like how can I know his name? And he sent us the police, basically.
Speaker 2:And the day after, like we received, I was just um, working with my dog in the house and just doing basic obedience, so no barking, no, nothing. And um, uh, the blocks in barcelona are squares and in the middle of the squares there's a hole. So basically, we were living in the first floor, exactly in the middle of the buildings, so everybody could see our roof. And all of a sudden my other two working dogs and my pet were chilling on their crate and I feel somebody jumping on my roof and I was like what is going on? All the dogs start jumping on my roof. And I was like what is going on? All the dogs start barking.
Speaker 2:Obviously, because I was like who's trying to break in my house? And I see a huge pool, a huge pool getting smashed on my window three or four times. And I opened the window and I was like what is going on? And I saw two police officers that were like hey, what are you doing here? You are breeding blah, blah, blah. And I was like no man. First you can come and ring at my door and not jump on my roof by smashing a pole into my window and pretending that I'm breeding dogs out here in an apartment in the center. What are you even saying? Like why?
Speaker 1:don't you just knock on the door?
Speaker 2:Exactly why don't you just knock on the door? Exactly like a police raid. And I was like what is even going on? And they were like, why do you leave? And I'm like, oh, just ring this, this bell, and I will help you and offer you a coffee and the coffee yeah yeah, I was like let's chill out, drink coffee, let's drink an espresso and chill out.
Speaker 2:And they were like and they come to my house. And I was like, oh, please, come in. They were like, oh, no, we cannot because, um, we just received the call and I was like no, no, come, come over like I don't care, you're not you now. You did all this bullshit, going on to my roof and smashing pools into my windows, like now you come upstairs smashing poles like a pole they broke his window.
Speaker 3:It was like a police raid almost break my window.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they almost break my window and I was like what?
Speaker 1:when was this?
Speaker 2:this was like one year and a half ago I feel like you've like really been through it.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, absolutely yeah, it's been really fun it's been really intense.
Speaker 2:And um, and that time I was like, no, please come upstairs. And they were like no, no, no, but uh, don't let the dogs barks again. And I was like, okay, cool, like cool, um, come on up have a coffee, yes, and they were like no, no, we have better stuff to do. And I was like, oh, good, cool now you do oh cool.
Speaker 2:I was like very cool. And the day after they pulled up, pulled over again, but this time they were not two, they were four. Cool, I was like very cool. And the day after they pulled up, pulled over again, but this time they were not two, they were four. And I was like, okay, no, I'm I'm tired of this bullshit. Like just come upstairs and all my dogs were outside of the crease and, um, they were like oh uh, we need to check and take pictures of the dog if they're abused. We need all the papers of every dog in here. And I was like yeah, for sure. And like, um, have a seat. Do you need something? Water or whatever?
Speaker 2:and they're like coffee they were like no, no, thank you, we are on rush, blah, blah, blah. And for sure, I have my working dachi and it was like five months old and, um, super drivey, super intense, and we I was having on a leash. It was like why he's on a leash? And I was like because you don't want him out of a leash, like, trust me and they were like what happened?
Speaker 2:and this police officer like started staring at him and starting moving his hand super fast close to his mouth and I was like, hey, I will not do that, trust me. And he was like, oh why? I was like, because he's a working line, dutchie, a five-month super drive is going to bite you no.
Speaker 3:Basically a police dog.
Speaker 2:Yes, they were like no, trust me, I'm used to these dogs that lose the leash. I was like, okay, I will lose the leash and the duchy clack one of the fingers. I was like, can I grab the leash again now? And they were like this dog is dangerous. And I was like, and it's on training. Like what do you even expect? Ah, okay, cool, cool. No, but your dog doesn't look abused. And I was like my dog abused. And I was like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And I had like a short training session with the dogs and they were like, oh, but you're really a trainer, oh, my god. And I was like yeah, no shit that's my job.
Speaker 2:Like we have a school here in barcelona and I've trained some of your dogs too. They're like oh, oh, okay, I don't know why these kind of people call us out and blah, blah, blah, blah. And at the end we had to move because this guy was just calling the cops every day. And every day we had cops at our place saying that, oh, your dogs are barking and you're abusing dogs inside the crease. And I was like man, dogs bark like once per day because somebody tried to break in my house.
Speaker 1:Like bro, I everybody shits on, everybody shits on florida. That shit would not fly in florida. Let me tell you, yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 2:You've, like you've really been through it in your business yes, and when they come up and they saw the crease, they were like, oh, but this is so cruel, why should you leave your dog there? And I was like my duchy when he was young, like had sleeves around and he was just hanging, crying, biting the sleeve at like three months old and I was like I mean you showed us a video of him at like four months, just like full grip in the sofa full grip on the couch, moving his tail super happy, and I was like you don't want to create, you don't want to create this dog.
Speaker 2:And they were like no, he's like a jail. And I was like no, like he has his own bed inside and like it just chill there. And they were like, yeah, but also in the jail, you have your bed. And I was like, uh, let's leave the topic and just go forward. And yes, so that's.
Speaker 1:And now you have your own house.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, we moved out of the city center. Luckily, we live in the middle of the forest, with no neighborhood and just like a term with the house and just where we train dogs and just enjoy the chill life now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Congrats well, well deserved so the light after the tuna, yeah, yeah you've really been through it to be able to have that.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll go ahead and wrap it up there. I really appreciate you being on my podcast oh, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, and thank you for having me yes, do you want to tell the people where they can find you?
Speaker 2:like instagram your website that sort of stuff okay, so I'm alessandro donaggio. Okay, that's, I think, super hard so I will spell it so a l e s s a n d r? O okay, and then d-o-n-a-g-g-a-o on instagram.
Speaker 1:And then the school is personal growth canine nice thank you so much if you're in barcelona, hit him up thank you so much I got listeners in spain. I do, I do well. Thank you both so much. Thank you all. Farouk kind of joined the pod.
Speaker 4:I'm just around, I hop around, I just exist.
Speaker 1:Farouk joined in on the podcast too. I love it. Toma was a little chattier today there you go.
Speaker 3:Thanks a lot, we just had to loosen him up a little bit.
Speaker 1:All right, guys. Thank you so much and thank you for listening. We will see you back here next week.