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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Tackling Resource Guarding & Building Better Relationships
In this episode we're joined by Thoma and dog trainer Faruukh, chatting all about how to manage resource guarding in dogs with actionable insights if you're struggling with this pretty common behavior. Discover the art of building a non-confrontational relationship with your dog while setting structured boundaries. Learn how to navigate the complexities of dog training, debunk common misconceptions, and tailor your approach to fit the unique needs of your dog based on their level of behaviors.
Faruukh shares his personal journey with his Malinois, Arya, offering practical strategies for addressing complex behaviors. From crate training to mastering the use of training tools like prong collars and e-collars, you'll gain invaluable knowledge on fostering trust and communication with your dog. Avoid the pitfalls of granting unnecessary privileges and understand the significance of genetic factors in shaping your dog's behavior.
Join us as we explore the role of genetics and environment in shaping a dog's temperament, with a special focus on doodles and their unique challenges. Through real-life anecdotes and listener questions, we highlight the importance of patience and understanding in dog training. Grab your tasty drink, and enjoy.
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Hello, hello and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. On today's episode, we're talking about resource guarding. I recently had somebody send me a message asking a bunch of questions about resource guarding, and so I want to dive deep into that. We're going to talk about what resource guarding is, how we work through it and also the difference between a well-behaved dog and an obedient dog. So this is a good episode. Grab your tasty drink and meet us back here. Hello and welcome.
Speaker 2:Hey, hey.
Speaker 1:We're joined by Farouk and Toma. Hello, Toma.
Speaker 3:Hello, hello, recording this out of our van.
Speaker 1:At Primal we have yet to be kicked out. So Farouk is a trainer and he's going to join us in this conversation around resource guarding. So Farouk has some personal experiences with resource guarding. He's going to tell us all about that. But basically, I had somebody reach out and they have a golden doodle that is resource guarding and this is, this is my bread and butter. This, like you guys train the sporty dogs, mine is resource guarding doodles like those are the dogs that I have a lot of experience with and I'm going to talk to you today about how I've kind of worked that, worked through that with these dogs. And I also had you guys send in a bunch of questions that you have on resource guarding. So we're going to go through that as well. So, farouk, tell us a little bit about your personal experience. Tell us a little bit about your personal experience.
Speaker 2:So I actually have a Malinois and before I was a trainer, she actually had a really bad resource guarding problem where, like it was over food toys, even me, and there were some issues with a previous partner of mine and so her specific issue was pretty much any like. She's a very dominant female, so her issue was anything that she deemed as hers, like she would be possessive over and she would research guard. Yeah, and so at least with her it was a lot of just over time her understanding that nothing was hers yeah and just helping her work through that.
Speaker 2:The way I did it was specifically with like a lot of trade games, like not necessarily like, for example, if it was a toy, rather than her like coming up and being like heavy-handed and like outing her. It was like, hey, you out this and you get something.
Speaker 2:You get this yeah, yeah, yeah so that was a more palatable like, it was easier for her to digest that, rather than me coming in and being like knock it off, like out out out, creating more conflict. Exactly Creating more conflict, which I mean essentially resource guarding at the root of it, is just yeah it's a relationship issue.
Speaker 1:So let's, let's talk about that like, let's talk about what resource guarding is. So I it like very layman's terms, resource guarding is your dog has a resource. It could be affection, it could be food, it could be a toy that they really like, and they are going to make sure that that doesn't escape them, right? So they're going to use kind of whatever tactics they can to make sure that that item or you know high value thing doesn't get taken away from them. So they're guarding that resource. So how did that go ahead?
Speaker 3:tomo it can be a place as well, like you know. You know, if you let dogs on furniture, they can resource guard, like the couch.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. Or a crate, or a crate, yeah. So tell us how that kind of like manifested for you and when were the like early signs that you're like ah shit, I have a dog that resource guards, or did you know right away?
Speaker 2:With her.
Speaker 1:I didn't know, it was called resource guarding at the time, but yeah, and I think that's why it's like important to like clarify that, because sometimes people have dogs that are like resource guarding and they don't even know like the terminology for it. So what does it look like for you?
Speaker 2:No, definitely so. With Aria I got her really young. It was a really messed up situation but with her she started resource guarding from like the moment I got her um at five, six weeks, um, she was already showing signs of like food aggression not like I would put food down, and before I could even put it down, like she was going at my hands oh my gosh. To like get the food, yeah and like yeah. It manifested with her at a really young age okay, so.
Speaker 1:So what did you do initially Like when you first saw that?
Speaker 2:So when I first started like seeing signs of resource guarding, essentially like I kind of waited for her to calm down and like either present a behavior Right and at the time obviously I didn't know any better but pretty much I would have her like sit and wait and then, like I put the food in her crate and then allow her to go and eat in her crate. So a way that at least that worked for me was her understanding that I wasn't going to be messing with her while she was eating. So like I know a lot of like I've seen a lot of different videos where like people or trainers will say like oh, you know, you got to put your hand in the dog's food.
Speaker 1:And like mess with it will say like, oh, you know you got to put your hand in in the dog's food and like, right with it. And also this is like a lot of the questions that I got. They're like when do I stop taking the valuable resource away? Like, when do I stop trying to keep? I'm like now now, stop doing that now. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like with her, it was like her understanding that like I'm not good, like I'm not opposition for her right, like hey, I'm gonna put the food in your I'm not good.
Speaker 1:Like I'm not opposition for her Right. Like, hey, I'm going to put the food in your crate.
Speaker 2:I'm not ops yeah, pretty much I'm not your ops Right, I'm going to put the food in your crate and then you can go in there, eat at your own pace, and then, once you're done, I'll come in and remove it, right, and then. So the way I did that was like I would feed her in the crate and then, once she was done, then I would present like an indirect rewards, like I toss a like treat away from the crate, so she'd come out, go get the treat, and then I'd remove the bowl, and so that's how I combated it at an early age. But, like I was saying previously, like she's a very dominant dog, so that the resource guarding kind of came back in like different forms with like toys and like the bed and her place caught and stuff like that down the road, and we addressed those issues like differently as well. But that's how I at least combated it with the food.
Speaker 1:And like how old was she when she started this?
Speaker 2:you said oh, five, six weeks baby yeah baby.
Speaker 1:So this like brings up the point that there is very much a genetic component to resource guarding absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, um, her genetics were not the best, um, and I got her from like a puppy mill again, like obviously I didn't know what I know now, and so when I got her, what I thought was like a good, reputable breeder wasn't, and I, when I went to go actually check out the litter, it was like a really terrible situation where the dog, the puppies, weren't being properly like taken care of, the mother wasn't being properly nourished and it was just like really filthy area, yeah, and so I was supposed to get the dog at like eight weeks.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like a normal. Yeah, yeah, so the.
Speaker 2:When I went to go actually just check out the litter, I wasn't supposed to be taking the dog home, but when I saw the conditions initially the dog was supposed to run me like I want to say it was like two, three thousand dollars, yeah, um, when I got there I was like hey, like can I take the puppy now? And like I had to go. Like I only had like I think six or seven hundred bucks on me and I had to go to the bank to like get cash out. And the guy was like what do you have on you? And I was like this is what I have. And he's like I'll just take Cause. He thought like if I left I wasn't going to come back. So I like this dog that was supposed to be like two $3,000, I got for like 600 bucks and yeah, it was just terrible Red flag.
Speaker 2:Terrible, terrible situation. Yeah yeah, and like when I got her, like I had to bottle feed her and stuff like that and that like helped. But from knowing what I know now, like I didn't necessarily do things wrong, it was again like you said. It was just something that was like genetically in her where she's just very like also think that just like anything else, like it can be limited with like proper training and like relationship.
Speaker 1:You know so a lot of the dogs that we get that are resource garters. I went through a period where I only got resource guarding doodles Like I was literally the golden doodle trainer and this kind of goes off of like the same thing that you experience with Aria is just like shitty breeding. You know, golden doodles are not bred for temperament, they are bred for looks and size and that's pretty much that's it.
Speaker 3:You know standard, that's the bread for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so they're like I would say when golden doodles were like you know, yeah, that's the bread for yeah, and so they're like I I would say when golden doodles were like you know, popping off, they were like the popular dog. I feel like they've kind of like died down a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um I feel like that's definitely like the popular breed out here, like yeah you know our good friend ed, that's his shit, that's his bread and butter, that's all he deals with.
Speaker 1:He is he is the golden doodle. Okay, so that was me. I was that in Orlando and it was because I was in this like golden doodle group on Facebook and they just kept referring me, which, like I'm very grateful. But I also got some very crazy people from that group and so they were just getting these like genetic dumpster fire dogs that like yeah, they were cute but they just were a mess Like they were honestly just like these feral little doodles and I was having people drive all over the country to come and bring me their resource guarding doodles.
Speaker 1:So some things that I was seeing with these dogs is, first of all, I do believe that there's a huge genetic component to it, because I feel like dog trainers, when people have behavioral issues with their dogs, dog trainers love to like blame owners and it's like it's what you're doing and it's like OK, but at the end of the day, a well-bred, stable dog will never have these issues, no matter what you do.
Speaker 1:Right, like there's nothing that I could do to zoe that would like cause her to be like aggressive and like resource guard to me, and so you know I I never want to like guilt people into having dogs with behavioral issues and be like, well, it's how you live with the dog and it's like, no, the dog has a genetic component to this. And then, through our relationship and behaviors with these dogs, it just escalates and I feel like resource guarding, as I'm sure you learned in raising Aria, is one of those things where it's a very slippery slope Right and you fix it in some areas and then it scoots on over into other areas of your life no, yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Like, at least in my situation as she grew up, like the resource guarding definitely got better as I got better at managing it, um, but kind of how it developed later in life with, you know, possession of like the bed and the place caught was a previous partner of mine used to not listen to my direction and she wanted to like, cuddle with her and like this is a very common thing, yeah and so I was really big on management, like I used to work grave shift at the time.
Speaker 2:This was before I went full-time dogs, I was just doing it on the side, um, but I, you know, I made sure, like you know, at night you create her. She's not that kind of dog like you don't. She's not like cuddly, she's not she's not you know, she's very much like she will come at you, you know. And so what happened was well, the breaking point was essentially one night I was at work and she was cuddling with her and she went to move her and she did not like that.
Speaker 2:And then Aria ended up coming at her and she pretty much had her like pinned in a corner, like scared for her life yeah and I was like I told you, this is not that kind of dog, but um, that's kind of how it manifested like later in life, and the way we tackled that was pretty much you no longer get a bed, you, those are privileges that you earn over time and if you prove that you can handle those things, then cool, you get it. But in her situation, at least at that point in her life, she wasn't able to handle it, so she no longer got those privileges. Right now she's more stable, she's a little bit more comfortable, like I do allow her on the couch in the bed sometimes, but it's again. She needs to be just as enthusiastic about getting off as she is when I tell her to get on right.
Speaker 1:So that's something that's important to me yeah, and that's something that I always emphasize with people is like I don't care what my dogs do as long as they can do the opposite, you know yeah, like I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm not one of those trainers that know, tell people, like, don't have your dog on the bed, don't have your dog on the couch. Like I might be a sport dog trainer but like or you know, I do have sport dogs, but I'm also very much like a fur dad. I like to cuddle with my dogs from time to time. So, yeah, you know, like I definitely do allow my dogs to do that, but, like you were saying, it's definitely like it has to be both. You have to do at a hundred percent. If I tell you to come on, you can come on, but if I tell you to get off, you have to get off just as quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, and I think what were you going?
Speaker 3:to say I mean, I've seen you cuddle with your dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely do have my fur dad side.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I love to see it.
Speaker 2:But also you give each of your dogs different like amount of privileges and, like you know, you have to adjust according to each dog yeah, no, absolutely like, for example, um, kind of going what off tomo said was like I don't, even though my dogs are capable of being out together.
Speaker 2:I know, meg, that's a big thing for you.
Speaker 2:Um, at least for me, though, is it's really important that my dogs value me, and so I'm never going to be's really important that my dogs value me, and so I'm never going to be able to play with my dogs the way that they can play with each other, right?
Speaker 2:So I feel like that kind of I would lose some value there, and I do let them play together from time to time, but, um, the reason I don't is for that, like, I want my dogs to understand that, like, when they're out, they're not competing kind of going back to the resource guarding they're not competing for my attention, right, I know my dogs and I know that I have dogs that are a little softer, I have dogs that are a little harder, right, and so I don't want them to be competing for my attention, my affection, any of those things. So they each get individualized attention, right, I bring one out, play with them, do whatever, give them some love, and then they go up, and then the other one comes out right now again. From time to time they do get to play together, but that's maybe a couple times a week, not, it's not like a daily thing yeah, and even in like the individual time, like they have different rules.
Speaker 3:You know, like you can I don't know pick up one of your dogs, put them in your arms and, like you would definitely do that with the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where are you at with aria now?
Speaker 2:uh, now she's like I mean she lives a very like fairly structured life but for the most part, like she by far has the most freedom out of any of my dogs. Um, she's the oldest, she's gone through you know the ups and downs and she gets it. Now she still tries to challenge me from time to time but at the same time, like she also knows when I'm like serious and I'm when I tell her not to do something like she's like okay, like yeah you know, um, but yeah, by far she definitely has the most freedom.
Speaker 2:um, she's the oldest of my dogs, so, um, she's gone through like the entire training process and, like my, how old is she? She is going to be five in like a couple months, nice, nice. And then my other two dogs are, like significantly younger. So, like I said, she's further along and she, at this point, like she knows the ins and outs. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do cuddle with her in bed, like I said she can handle it now, yeah, like, well, my other two dogs are also like they're working dogs, you know what I mean. Like, yeah, then he's you know, sport dog, and then aries, who's relatively new to me. He's going to be my girlfriend's personal protection dog, so they are still able to like cuddle and chill and you know they do have that off switch that I really look for in my working dogs. Um, but, like between those three, I wouldn't trust like ven or aries to like go to bed, like I can fall asleep, and they'll get into shit, versus like aria like she's just gonna lay there, yeah.
Speaker 1:But like I said, at this point, when I tell her to get off, she's like okay, you know, I gotta get off or I gotta go to my crate or whatever yeah, and I also think that it's important to emphasize that, like compared to a lot of owners like as just being a dog trainer you're way more structured with your dog than most people are. So, while there is a genetic component, you know, training and management is huge, and one of the big questions that I got, like a million times over from asking Instagram was like, can you actually solve resource guarding or is it something that's just like through management? And I feel like this is a tricky question because I think solving it is through like management, because that is what sets the tone for your relationship, right? So this person um reached out to me I think I have a call with them on monday and it's the you know resource guarding golden doodle. But, um, where was I going with this resource guarding golden doodle?
Speaker 1:well, we were talking about it like kind of before the podcast and how if we would get a board and train that has like resource guarding issues, we wouldn't even technically address the resource guarding head-on, it would just be like your regular board oh yeah, and that was the big thing, was she was like the problem, right is, the dog is has learned that he can protest, that he can use aggression, that he can use his body, use his force to get out of doing things that he doesn't want to do, and and that's essentially. You know, resource guarding. So, like when we were talking about it, where I was like you know, how do we even talk about how we solve resource guarding? Because it's like it's a relationship issue. A lot of the time there is a genetic component to it, you know. But like, at the end of the day, if you have a dog, that's resource guarding and they're fighting you and you don't make them go into the crate, like that's, that's going to be your big.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the root of the problem right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's where like doing board and trains for resource guarding is a really tough solve because oftentimes, like when we get bored and trains, like at least I don't know how you guys do board and trains, but like at least for us, like the dogs are working for their meals and they're getting crate time and individualized, like outside time and things like that, and they do live like very structured lives. So, going back to what you said, it's going to be very different to when they go back home. Yes, right, and like doing a board and train specifically for resource guarding is really difficult because my relationship with that dog, that dog may never resource guard with me, but that's because how I manage well, that's what we're saying is like we wouldn't know yeah, you wouldn't really see that I feel like almost when you're doing a board and train with a resource garter, it's just like at the end of the day, the training is all the same right.
Speaker 1:Like we're teaching the dog how to go into a crate. Because like, if your dog is resource guarding and they're fighting you at the crate, then like that's gonna be a huge point of our training is like you have to be comfortable going into the crate and you have to do it.
Speaker 3:When I tell you to do it, you know it's almost more like an animal husbandry thing than a dog training question, but that's how I feel about dog training in general yeah you know, it kind of goes with like the behavior obedience thing.
Speaker 1:Like people view dog training as obedience training when, like I feel like dog training is really more just like animal husbandry of like here's this animal, here's how we successfully live with this animal yeah, like people, I feel like over complicate dog training.
Speaker 2:Like I'm sure you guys have been around mike at this point and you know the way he explains things.
Speaker 2:It's like well, duh yeah, right like he simplifies it so much, and I feel like that's that's really what it is like. It is a lot simpler than people make it out to be like. I feel like clients, um think that you know people like dog trainers are. They have this like secret sauce of like how to do things right, and it like, when we say things, it's like, well, it's not working for me. Well, it's like, no, you're just not doing it right, necessarily, you know, and to a certain degree, yeah, like it does come down to genetics, but also it is to a certain degree, yeah, like it does come down to genetics, but also it is to a certain degree like how they're doing it versus how we do it Right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like, for example, with resource guarding Right. We can see the signs building up to a real like explosion.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah Versus like. So we know, like, ok, let's release a little bit of pressure here, let's change some things and attack it a different way. Right versus like. The handler or the owner wouldn't necessarily they may or may not necessarily be able to identify those markers of like hey, this dog is building and there's going to be yeah.
Speaker 1:So I feel like when you do a board and train with a resource guarding dog, it's more so just trying to feel the dog out, you know, because you're also not going to be able to do that in lessons. You know like it's hard to like recreate stuff like that, but it's like you really get to know the dog. And when I was getting these doodles these doodles were just running these owners lives I had a doodle that would like resource guard, like paper towels or like the owner's phone. He learned that he could like steal the owner's phone and then like go in the bedroom and then he would like resource guard the phone and the bedroom. Is that not the craziest shit ever?
Speaker 2:That's hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Or like dogs preventing their owners to leave their homes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like that is wild to me, you know. So I feel like as a trainer or even as an owner, your job is to look at your dog and really try your best to have a like non-emotional view of your dog and their behaviors and then figure out what type of lifestyle that dog needs.
Speaker 2:so that kind of goes into like the management right I also feel like a lot of uh like owners they don't understand like a lot of things that they would see. Sorry, a lot of owners, when they have their dogs, like they give their dogs a lot of privileges that they feel like they need. That's like a necessity when it's not correct. So what I mean by that is like a bed, right, they can have a crate they can have, you know, they can have like a place caught and things like that, but like, or you know, giving them a bunch of treats, or there's certain things that are just privileges leaving toys out the basket of toys.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, allowing them up on the basket of toys. Yeah, like always sleeping, but in bed like things like that that are.
Speaker 2:You know that we would consider privileges. A lot of owners feel like that's a necessity for the dog when it's not right, like I think we touched on it a little bit last week but there's's like dogs are buying it, like it's very black and white, it's all association based, you know, and so like, when it comes to those things. That's how they develop those resource guarding is because there's a lack of like, control and structure for the dogs and because of that lack of structure, it causes them to feel like they have these possessions that they you know that they need, rather than, hey, this is, this is a privilege, like you get toys, you get these trees, you get the bed. Yeah, these are all privileges, not necessities and every dog is different too.
Speaker 1:So one of the questions that I got, let me pull it up here At what point do you feel like you have successfully rehabilitated a dog? I feel like that's kind of it's like a tricky question because, like there, it's not really in like, oh, the dog is rehabilitated, oh, the dog is rehabilitated, and now you can do whatever you want with this dog and leave toys out and, you know, trust children to take food from your dog. It's like no, that's where I'm saying like you need to be able to like realistically evaluate your dog and be like what behaviors have they shown me? Should I allow these specific privileges?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely, and like I get that question a lot too, like oh, when's my dog's training complete? Like, not even in reference to, like behavioral law or anything like that, even just like puppy stuff, and I feel like a lot of people don't like these are living creatures.
Speaker 1:It's literally a relationship that would be like, oh when is your marriage done? That's exactly what it is creatures.
Speaker 2:It's literally a relationship. Yeah, that would be like oh, when is your?
Speaker 1:marriage done. Yeah, it's like when has your marriage been successful? And you're like what you have to, like work at it every single day, like any type of relationship you know, and so it's like it's the exact same with dogs, and so I want to point out like what some things that owners can avoid doing to either, you know, prevent resource guarding from developing or prevent it from getting any worse. And the problem with resource guarding is the only times that I've been bit by training dogs has been resource guarding golden doodles, like.
Speaker 1:In my eyes, I think that is some of the most dangerous behavior because, like you said, it's with things that people just expect dogs to be able to do right, like people just expect a dog to be able to have a whole bunch of toys on the floor. People just expect dogs to be able to do right, like people just expect a dog to be able to have a whole bunch of toys on the floor. People just expect dogs to be able to go into the bed or cuddle, you know, like aria, and it's like no, we have to drop these expectations and we have to look at the dog that we have and, you know, kind of learn to read them and figure out like hmm, can this dog handle this?
Speaker 2:You know, no, absolutely Like. For example, like let's take Toma and I's like we have working dogs, right. So, for example, like I would say, ven and Hawk are very obedient dogs, like they're very highly trained yeah, very well trained but by no means would I consider them well-behaved dogs. They're both nut jobs dogs.
Speaker 1:They're both example we were using earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they're both absolute nut jobs. Like I, I wouldn't trust them around kids. I wouldn't trust that. Like well, I would trust them around kids, but controlled like, yeah, under supervision a lot of structure like with a leash on and your tools and in a command yeah, like I wouldn't. I would never just be like break and just let the dog go do whatever it wants they don't make good decisions on their own yeah, like, even again, our dogs are very highly trained.
Speaker 2:I couldn't leave toys out or food out and just expect them to be like no, I'm gonna, I'm cool right here. No, like they're gonna go get the toy, they're gonna go get the food. Right. And it goes back to your difference between a well-behaved dog versus an obedient dog. Right, yeah, like again. Then, perfect example like I've done food refusal with him. Right, meaning like he won't take food from other people, or like food off the ground but in in the house, like he's allowed to right, or like here at the facility, he's allowed to. So, again, the difference between like in the normal context, what is he well behaved? Not at all, not at all right. But, as you guys have seen, like he's very obedient. Right, like he's got really nice obedience and things like that, but he is not well behaved at all yeah, like a good example is like I could leave walter, my pet shepherd, out in the house.
Speaker 3:he's not gonna, you know, on counters, take food or anything. I don't have to worry about him. He doesn't actually need to be in a crate Hawk. On the other hand, if I would like leave, you know, a room, guaranteed he's picking the steak off the counter and you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know just. That's the one thing my dogs do is butter butter off the counter. They can't be trusted when there's butter out the goldens. They do love their food yeah, but like you know, zoe's not obedient, but it's like she's just, she's very well behaved puppy cake dog.
Speaker 3:You know, I don't ever have to worry about those things, so I feel like zoe is the perfect example of what like most people like as a society when they think of like a dog. Like most people want a zoe just like a well-behaved dog. You don't really have to like, she's just like happy to be here, happy go lucky.
Speaker 1:Can cuddle, won't read. I mean, her resource guarding is like her being pushy with like affection, you know, but it's like oh yeah, she's a golden retriever like she can go on the bed.
Speaker 3:It's not a problem like in yeah in that um email you received the. You know the lady. She's struggling with resource guarding and she mentioned something about like the dog, like chewing blankets, and in her mind it wasn't even like, oh, my dog shouldn't be on the bed, like that wasn't the issue. You know, she didn't even realize that she's providing too much freedom for her dog yes, well, I mean just the crate thing right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is, that is that's it. You know, like, yeah, you, that's step one. You know, and I talk about like all the basic stuff all the time. Like you have to crate train your dog, if you are working with trainers and they are not having you crate train your behavioral dog, like I don't, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like it goes even further, like even younger than like crate training with a puppy. It's like I feel like a lot of dog owners don't do enough research with the kinds of dogs that they want and then they get these different kinds of dogs that have these issues that are typically genetic, right, like, for example, with like again working dogs. Like we want pushier behaviors, right. Right, we want them to mentally believe that they can do whatever they want. Right, especially as puppies, because as they progress, you know, if personal protection is a direction that they decide to go, that dog has to mentally believe that it can do whatever, right. So, with those dogs we want more pushy behavior. So we might overlook resource guarding or overlook certain things for those benefits, right, like I know, recently, like with the John Wick movies coming out, like Malinois were like the craze, like everyone was getting Malinois okay, and people didn't understand that Malinois they're like, yeah, they can do some cool ass shit, but like these are gnarly dogs, you don't?
Speaker 2:make great pets at all. They don't at all. And again, I can attest to this because I was one of those people. I got a Malinois. I grew up with German Shepherds and Dobermans, yeah, so I thought I could handle that. I was not ready.
Speaker 1:I did not do the research? Yeah, but Arya is also like a lot yeah, yeah no, she definitely is a bossy bitch she is um, but again like that.
Speaker 2:But that was also partly me, right, like I didn't do the proper research to understand like this is the caliber of dog that I'm getting. I was like I thought they come out of the box like that you know again so me speaking on these topics like I, I went through this stuff firsthand, you know who's playing with their bowl? We just fed the dogs and clearly we should have removed the bowls first.
Speaker 2:But yeah, going back to people don't do the proper research to understand the kinds of dogs that they're getting and then they have these issues that are sometimes genetic and then they're like, well, why does my dog do this? Why does my dog?
Speaker 3:We recently had like someone with a border collie, think it was aggressive but because it was nipping ankles but that's just like hurting they're like you got a border collie that's literally what it's bred for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the perfect example, right, like people get these dogs and then not understand, like what they're genetically predisposed to, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:So first things first, be mindful of genetics. Like if you have a dog who is resource guarding some common areas that I see. Resource guarding is obviously with food. That's a big one. So either you put food down or maybe you walk past a dog that's eating and the dog will usually growl and kind of like position itself over the food. Another really big one that I get all the time is affection. Affection is huge. So if you have multiple dogs, let's say you're petting one dog and then another dog comes up and like uses aggression to get that dog out of the way. Or if you're petting one dog and another dog approaches, like the dog that you're petting will guard you. And then I would say random objects, a lot like, a lot, a lot with like just bizarre things. And that's why I think it's really important to emphasize the genetics part, because it's like that is not, like there's no rhyme or reason for this. You guarding paper towels, you know, like what?
Speaker 2:what is socks?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, socks are stinky and you know, like my dogs love socks, that's like the end, all be all to them. Like they're golden retrievers. They're like gonna pick up socks. You's like the end, all be all to them. Like they're golden retrievers. They're like gonna pick up socks, you know. But like paper towels are like even the cell phone thing like that's pretty crazy, right?
Speaker 2:I've never heard of that I still talk to her.
Speaker 1:I need to check on her, by the way. Um, she okay. So she brought her dog to me, resource guarding like the room, random objects, cell phone, paper, towels. Like this dog was aggressive whenever you would try to put tools on him. Like he learned that like prong collar equals I can't do whatever I want and I can't bully you. So I'm gonna bully you, so you don't put this thing on me, right? So she brought this dog to me and, like, the first things that we worked on is obviously the basics Like we have to get him on a crate schedule. He wasn't crated enough and that's a big thing is, you know, the crate is not just like designated downtime, it's a way to add structure into your dog's day and you're also telling them to do something that they might not want to do, and that's a valuable thing, you know. Like, hey, I need you to go into this box for a little bit and I'm going to go, like take a shower, like you're going to be fine, you know.
Speaker 2:But I think all of those go back to the relationship, right, like. What kind of relationship does the dog back to relationship? Right like. What kind of relationship does the dog have with the crate? What kind of relationship does the dog have with these tools? Right like. I feel like a lot of people, or even some trainers, like you know, they use these tools, they use prong collars, they use e-collars, slip leashes, and it's like oh, once that goes on, like I feel like people have this misconception that like, oh, just by using the tool, the dog should automatically know what to do. No, the tool is just a form of communication, right, like. But how are we associating it? So, at least, like the way, like when I, even before I even start using the tools, like, whether it's a prong collar or a collar, like I do, like a week of just like desensitizing the dog, like I'm putting it on, I'm rewarding it, I'm taking it off, I'm rewarding it yes, but that's also with dogs that like, are you're able to like give them, or you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:But what? I 100% get what you're saying. But I'm saying if, if the tool was introduced correctly in the first place, it wouldn't feel that way about the tool. Do you know what I mean place? It wouldn't feel that way about the tool. Do you know what I mean? Like if the tool before you ever started correcting a dog with, like, for example, that dog, right Before they ever started even connecting a leash to that prong collar, right, just by putting it on and taking it off without any sort of correction happening, before you even correct the dog, you start to reinforce it in a positive way, right. So, for example, like, if I'm putting the tool on, I'm like, for the first week I'm not even connecting a leash to it, right, I'm not even turning the e-collar on.
Speaker 1:All it essentially becomes just like the regular flat collar that they use I know, but what I'm saying is there are dogs that like, literally, you can't, like, you couldn't put a leash on him, yeah, you know, in an ideal world, yeah, if the dog came with a blank slate.
Speaker 1:you're teaching the foundation, so it's like you get this dog right who is resource guarding to the point of, like he's using aggression to he's not forwardly aggressive, right, you know, I think there's an important distinction there. Like, resource guarding dogs typically are not forwardly aggressive. Um, I do think that resource guarding is a form of aggression, but essentially, like you get this dog that understands that when this leash is on me I don't get what I want. Flat collar, like doesn't really matter, like what the tool is, it's like this thing limits me, I can't go where I want, I can't do what I want, to the point where it's like so when I first start training a dog, the first thing I have to do is the leash. Right, I have to teach the leash. Let's say, you know, I I remember this dog so well comes to me.
Speaker 1:The first thing I do is the game where you basically just stand and the dog hits the end of the leash and hits the end of the leash and hits the end of the leash and they're essentially trying to like escape, right, and so you're just standing there and you're like, hey, putting pressure on the leash is not going to get you going where you want.
Speaker 1:The name of the game is there's a person attached to the end of this leash and I am going to decide when you get to move forward, because, like, moving forward is the only rewards to a dog like this. So then it becomes okay, we're standing there, leash is on. Whenever the dog gives into a teeny bit of leash pressure, you know a little bit of good and I'll reward you with the environment, right. But then at some point you have to take the leash off these dogs. But like he wasn't even safe to where that was like possible, it's like okay, you have to have a slip lead on you, even when you're in the crate, because, like me, even just clipping a leash to your collar is conflict right and kind of going back to what you were in the crate.
Speaker 1:Because, like me, even just clipping a leash to your collar is conflict right and kind of going back to what you were talking about earlier is like conflict, right, and so I feel like that's where a lot of people are with their dogs is like they're already there they're so far gone.
Speaker 2:They're so far gone.
Speaker 1:You know like they're genuinely so far gone. It's like you, the dog has gotten so many reps, like putting up a fight and you allowing them to give into that pressure. Or putting up a fight at the crate and you giving into, you know, that battle. And like not putting the dog in the crate where it's like, let's be real, a lot of the dogs are overfed, you know. So it's like okay, let's say you have a dog, that's resource guarding. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to not feed that dog from a bowl, only feed the dog from your hands.
Speaker 1:But if I say that there are also dogs that people have tried to do that too much to now, food is toxic, right, so it to be like, oh, here's the, here's the formula for resource guarding, but it's like there's really not. It's just like here's some things to avoid doing, right, like, let's say, your dog is resource guarding, don't put your hands in the bowl. You know like don't just put a tool on and start cranking on your dog for resource guarding. So there's like there's definitely levels to it. But you know, some general advice is, with everything in dog training, you have to have the basics. Sometimes the basics is going to be way easier for some people than it is for other people, you know. So, like basics for like, a dog with zoe is a walk in the park right we're, we're teaching loose lead walking in day one. Basics with a resource guarding dog is like, well, that's gonna take months. You know a dog who has fought at the crate and fought, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like that again, kind of going back to what we were saying earlier, like it never really ends, right, like I feel like people you know they'll do like a board and train and it's like, okay, cool, here's the dog, I'll pick it up in three weeks and it's done, yeah, right. And it's like, well, again, they don't work that way. Right, it's, it's. They've picked up these behaviors over the course of months, years, years, and a three week board and train isn't going to solve that, right, especially when a topic like resource guarding is so relationship based. Oh, yeah, right. So just like what you said is, like as trainers, we give them and kind of like we give them, like the management tools.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we give them a broad umbrella and then you kind of pick and choose what works for that specific dog, because we don't live with the dogs, not all dogs are born in trains, right? So it's like here's all of these different options, you pick what works for your dog and you implement that yeah, and it's going to require a lifestyle change.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the expectations of the handler or the owner is going to have to change a little bit.
Speaker 1:I think you're talking into the back of the microphone.
Speaker 3:I am Well. Hopefully there wasn't too much mumbling, no.
Speaker 2:I feel like even me just bringing up hand feeding to clients, it blows their mind Like what? Oh yeah, all the food comes from me.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, like, but also like some of these doodles would literally rather die like they. I'm farouk. They will starve themselves.
Speaker 2:That's how, like stubborn some of these dogs are mental instability when two dogs don't belong together and you put them together, you get a doodle. I know that causes mental instability. So going back to your genetics right Like understanding what kind of dog you're getting and understanding what kind of even potential, before you even get the dog, what kind of potential problems can you have with them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think that's emphasized enough in doodles, but that, like, I'm gonna have to talk to some other trainers because, like when I get a resource guarding dog, it's a doodle always you need to have ed on here I know we need to bring in the doodle expert he is the doodle. He has three personal doodles I know, but his are good but I don't understand how he lives.
Speaker 2:He goes from doodles to working dogs. Like atari's. A psycho like the have you met doodles? Like they're crazy no, I've met his dude, I've met, I've met his dogs, but like the, the, the switch, the switch from his doodles and they're just like all fluffy and they're like little too.
Speaker 1:They're like little ones, they're not big.
Speaker 2:And then you have a working goofy ass atari who like comes out of the crate wants to murder everybody, like he is super neutral and social and things like that, but the instant a suit is involved.
Speaker 1:I know we were talking about that.
Speaker 3:He's a serious dog. No, I don't know.
Speaker 1:He was biting pretty hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Atari's a very nice dog I don't know.
Speaker 3:Ed got the contract to film for Mike and somehow got tricked into getting a working dog.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what happens. You end up at Primal and you get a working dog, the doodle guy. In a year and a half I've gotten two dogs that I did not expect to get. That's the Mike Jones effect.
Speaker 1:I do not want any more. No, when I came here last year I was like I want a fat-headed dutchie. And then I talked to Mike on the phone. He's like are you sure you're ready for that? I'll have you talk to Aaron. And I was like okay. And they're like you can never go out of town and no one can watch your dog. And I was like never mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you guys learned that firsthand after coming and watching them.
Speaker 1:Golden retrie, golden retrievers, yeah, um, okay, so let's talk about the things that owners shouldn't do. I brought this up like 20 minutes ago and I got sidetracked. Some easy things owners should avoid to avoid the progression of resource. Resource guarding um first things first.
Speaker 3:Do not leave out resources yeah, you had a wild, a wild concept you had a comment about, um, someone with like a puppy, like having a hard time getting getting a shoe out of a puppy oh yeah, that was one of the questions. It was like oh my god and it's like well, why is your puppy exposed to a bunch of loose shoes? Just clean them up, put them in the okay this is a really good.
Speaker 1:No, I'm getting sidetracked. We'll come back to the questions in a second. Okay, so so I've been up since like 3 am. Um, so avoid leaving a basket of toys out, okay, first of all, if you have a resource guarding dog, if your dog is growling or snapping at you when you take their food away or a bone away, or a toy away, or when you try to tell them to get down off the bed, they should not have those things at all absolutely like you have to take away the resources.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, on the back end of our training we'll say don't leave those things out. But in the beginning of resource guard training, like you've realized that your dog has a problem. They do not get those resources Right. They have shown you that they cannot handle it. They cannot be on the bed with you if you cannot tell them to get down. Like that is a major, major problem. You cannot leave toys out if your dog, like will not release the toy or is growling at you every single time you walk past. Like that is crazy behavior to live with. That and I'm sorry if you do, but I just can't imagine living a life where you just have a whole bunch of toys on the ground and your dog is resource guarding them.
Speaker 3:It happens all the time, it's so wild and people live with dogs like that and they kind of let the behavior escalate and it's okay until something changes in their life, until somebody gets bit and that's either an incident or like.
Speaker 1:There's always an incident.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the problem is the resource guarding is a very slippery slope because it's such a emotional response and so it doesn't take a lot to condition those big emotional responses, like when your dog is reactive or you know guarding something. It only takes a couple reps and they're like oh, this is I like this worked this works.
Speaker 1:You know we're gonna, we're gonna keep doing this. So, as soon as you see it, we want to avoid it from progressing. Don't take those resources away. We can maybe eventually add them back in. But you know, not all dogs are dogs that can be in the bed, you know. So I talk a lot about Gretchen. Gretchen is never, ever, ever in a million years, going to be a dog that can cuddle in bed, like she just can't handle it. And it's not that she's a horrible dog, it's not that she's like inherently aggressive, she just is a she's a bit of a like forward bossy dog and if you give her an inch she's gonna take a mile.
Speaker 2:She's kind of like aria yeah, I feel like, again, that's not talked about enough as far as like like exactly what you said, some dogs are just not those kinds of dogs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they just can't handle it, yeah, and I mean, those are both dogs that kind of like seek to be pet, but then if you push them away they're gonna turn around and snap yeah well, it's so in aria's case.
Speaker 2:she's not that kind of like resource guarding, like she's never been a dog that resource guarded. Resource guards like affection it's things and like. So her thing was like again, the bed, the place caught food, like those were her things. And as she's matured she's kind of grown out of some of those things.
Speaker 1:But she's also realized like like, oh, this isn't my call, right, like it's not my job so that that's exactly what it is right.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, I for a while like for lack of better words I deprived her of all of those privileges, to where she understood, like I no longer get these, so now when she does get them, she understands that, hey, if I act a fool I don't get this anymore.
Speaker 2:I don't get this anymore at all for like, and it's not for like a day, it's not for two days, it's not a week, it's like months. Right, like she probably at one point, like especially like early on, like probably about two years ago, she probably went like a probably a solid year of like no bed, no bed in her crate, no bed, like no bedtime, no couches, nothing. And she, and then eventually, when I slowly started introducing it again, it was like, okay, like these are privileges, if I, if I act up, I'm not going to get them anymore. Yeah, so let me just act how I'm supposed to, because I know at this point, yeah, so that's kind of.
Speaker 1:step one is if your dog is resource guarding, you have to take the resources away. Step two is stop creating conflict around the resource, so stop trying to take away the thing don't pry your dog's mouth open to remove the object.
Speaker 1:That is a big no-no like yeah, I mean, I got probably five questions from people that were like can you show us a video of like how to take away a bully stick or how to you know? Like how to, how to take food away, how to like, yeah, how to Wait? Do you have any videos showing how to take a bully stick away? Correctly, you know? And it's like no, that's not the issue.
Speaker 2:Why are you trying to take it away?
Speaker 3:Exactly, Even talking about the management. Like creating a dog, yeah, there's a structure component, but it's also like you feed the dog in the crate and then they feel like that's a safe place for them to eat. You know exactly. They're not looking, side eyeing you and like being worried that you're going to steal the bowl at any moment.
Speaker 1:So things like bully sticks are kind of tough because sometimes they last a while yeah right.
Speaker 1:But like, let's say, you have a dog who, like, devours a bully stick in like half an hour, put that dog in the crate and give them a bully stick and let them finish it and don't mess with them and don't try to take it away from them yeah, I feel like you see a lot of videos like online of like different breeders or even like trainers, and it's like you're in the dog like food and you're messing with it and like all these different things.
Speaker 2:It's like what's the point of that? Like you're literally like creating conflict, yeah, like how would you feel if who like the person from the freaking restaurant came in and was like hey, you like this food, let me fuck around with it and put my hand in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me rub my hand in your food.
Speaker 2:Get your nasty ass hand out of my fucking food, Like I'm trying to eat here.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, and this goes to another point that I wanted to make earlier, which is resource guarding is a like natural behavior.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd slap your hand out of my plate right away.
Speaker 1:If I'm eating a bag of chips, I'm eating a bag of chips and somebody comes up and tries to oh, tom is going to get it, tom is going to get it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to bite somebody over my bag of chips. You know so like. It is a very natural behavior, but it's just an unsafe behavior. You know so like, as owners of dogs, we have to make sure that, like our like, as, as owners of dogs, we have to make sure that, like, our dogs are safe to exist in society and aren't, you know, biting people.
Speaker 3:So, and if you know you ever like resource guard or like don't give them like a bully stick that'll last like five hours, you know like give them smaller treats, like if you're gonna give them treats at all yeah but like yeah, don't create conflict around it, don't put your hands in the dog's bowl, don't try to take away the things, like you know that's.
Speaker 1:That's a don't chase the dog while they're having in their mouth oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, oh that was another question that I got was like I have a puppy that like takes shoes and like how do I stop it from like guarding my shoes?
Speaker 2:and it's like don't turn it into a game where it's fun for the dog I can picture exactly what's happening.
Speaker 1:it's the puppy grabs the shoe and you go oh stop, oh come stop, oh come here. Hey, come here, come here. You know.
Speaker 2:And the voice progressively gets deeper and more serious.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:He's just wagging his tail playing ball running around, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you're like you're just like one, making it a fun game and then also just like creating weird conflict around it. So like in that case I would say put your shoes up, you know like, don't, don't even make that a behavior or have a leash on the dog, or have a leash, or have a leash on your puppy so that that doesn't happen. Um, okay, so we've got what were my two points.
Speaker 3:I have like no brain today I yeah, you just got off a plane. I know A long day of travel I have been traveling all day long.
Speaker 1:Well, you said what was the first one? Not to like, take those resources away, right Take the resources away and then don't create conflict around the resources. What was my next point?
Speaker 3:Well, the first point was like not having the resources in picture, and if the dog gets it to like, not like, remove it okay, trade games.
Speaker 1:Talk to us about trade games.
Speaker 2:So I use those a lot, specifically again with ven. He's he doesn't resource guard, but he's a very possessive dog and kind of going back to what we're talking about with certain sport dog like sports or personal protection you want that possession, you want that dog to feel like this is mine, it's. It gives them a sense of power, right. So, and me understanding the dog's genetics, he is a very handler, sensitive dog, like if I was too hard on him he would come back at me, right. So the way I address those issues was through trade games, so like, rather than me coming and being like no, no, no, no, no, spit it out, and being really hard on him, it's like, hey, just by you spitting it out doesn't mean you lose it, right.
Speaker 2:So typically I use two toys, like, so if I have two balls, I have two of the same balls that are equal value, right. So I'll throw one ball, he gets it. He comes back playing dead or whatever, right, I let him win. And then I take the other ball out. So it's like, hey, you drop that one, you get this one. Right. So it makes it's not conflict, it Like I'll have them drop the toy and switch off for food. So it's like, hey, again, you're not losing the thing, you're getting this instead.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So not only are you avoiding conflict, but you're also like actually improving your relationship with the dog and you're like making a game out of it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or like re-rewarding and out with the tug.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Right. Like when, again, right now I'm in the process of teaching him an outright, so like if he, once I give him the word, he spits it out and then give it to him right back. Give it to him right back, right, so that way he doesn't understand, he doesn't associate like oh, by me releasing the object of my possession and this is what pet owners suck at is they're like leave it, leave it I also feel like they don't teach it the right way well, that's what I'm saying, like they I'm saying trainers, they don't trainers yeah, I'm saying trainers and owners don't teach I think, sporter sport, sporter, sporty
Speaker 3:bro sport owners are zero brain cells right now and teaching and out and trade games and all that yeah, but like pet owners, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just feel like, especially after hanging out with um the caesar camp people yeah. Yeah, I'm. Some of my audience is of the Caesar Milan camp and I have. I have no beef with Caesar. I love Caesar, I mean.
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know that much. I'll be completely honest, I don't like watch any of his things, but I like what he has to say, you know, so it only goes that deep. But a lot of the Disciples, the disciples. I like what he has to say, you know, so it only goes that deep.
Speaker 2:But a lot of the disciples, the disciples. I feel like they're so hard on the dogs yeah, they are. I just feel like again there's.
Speaker 1:But it's. It's that kind of mentality, whereas I feel like sporty people are like this is just a game. Oh, my dog bit me, right, but it's like the, the, the disciples are almost like how dare you bite me?
Speaker 2:I'm your master well, again it goes back to like an obedient dog versus a well-behaved dog, right so like in that sense that would be obedience, not well-behaved right so if, if a dog, sporty people, no, I'm saying like from from the caesar, from the caesar camp no, otherwise from from the caesar camp, right, it's like they're expecting the dog to be obedient and not well behaved, right?
Speaker 1:so if I don't think so. I think it's the opposite, right, wouldn't you say so they?
Speaker 2:don't think so I think it's the opposite right, Wouldn't you say so? They don't really do obedience.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. But I'm saying in that context where you're like, leave it, listen to me. Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Like they want their dog to be obedient in that moment.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, you are correct, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so by dog, like relax, you know, but again like back to the association stuff right, Like the whole reason, specifically like sport dog trainers or even just sport dog handlers, like they get it a little bit more is because they have some serious dogs that'll fucking nail them, you know. So it's like yeah, how can I manipulate this behavior to my advantage?
Speaker 3:yeah, you gotta make the dog think.
Speaker 2:It's like to his advantage and it's their idea, yeah and I feel like completely off topic, but I feel like that's why free shaping is such a powerful training tool, because it's the dog's choice yeah, it's the dog figuring it out themselves, right we'll have to do a whole other episode on free shaping.
Speaker 1:We can't, we can't get into free shaping right now.
Speaker 3:We'll get into that another time, but um, yeah and with sport, like the emotion of the dog matters so much too, like you want them to be like happy and prancy, but I feel like that's how it should be with pet training as well but I just think, like people don't
Speaker 1:have the experience, I mean, I didn't. I very much came from the mentality of like dogs just need to listen to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a whole like side of dog training where I mean, yeah, the dog's doing the thing, but he's kind of like shut down. And yeah, anyways, we're kind of getting off topic.
Speaker 1:We went down the sport, the sport dog rabbit hole, but I do think that, like so, when people are asking me like, oh, what are, what are some things? I keep losing my phone. So when people are asking me, oh, what are some things that you can practice with a dog that resource guards, I think it's things like that, right, you need to build up some sort of drive with the dog, a way that they enjoy, because, at the end of the day, if you have a dog that is resource guarding, you have most likely communication issues and relationship issues well that.
Speaker 2:And it's like for us as humans, it's like when we talk about rewarding the dog right, like for for people, just immediately in their head it's like food right, like sport dog trainers they get toys are also a reward. But but in the context of pet, it's like they immediately resort to like treats or food right, where not all dogs are food motivated, not all dogs are toy motivated, not all dogs give a shit about affection, right, so it's whatever the dog deems is valuable or important, right, and yeah, we're. We're talking about two very like opposing viewpoints of like, yeah, you, you deprive the dog of those resources, but you, you, you utilize those resources as a form of reward when the dog does what you want them to right right.
Speaker 1:And I also think, like when you make it fun, like let's say we're doing out, right. So like when I play tug with my dogs, I'm playing tug with them, like I take out their toy, I get them excited. I'm like, yeah, are you ready? I get them chasing it a little bit. They grab the tug, we play tug back and forth and then I stand still. I tell them, oh, you t. They let go, and then I immediately give it to them and we play tug again. Right, so like you're creating your foundations in a fun, low pressure context. That way, in moments when a dog is like resource guarding, so like let me read this one right here um, one year old hound mix who resource guards if he steals a sock, tissue etc. And home with the kids, right so like I guarantee what's happening is that dog is grabbing something. And then they add conflict to it, right, they're like I'm gonna say'm going to say Cooper, cooper, come here.
Speaker 2:And they start chasing the dog around.
Speaker 1:They're either chasing the dog, or they're like yelling at the dog to come over, or they're trying to like rip the thing away, where it's like if you practice this like fun game of like tug and out, then it would be like, oh, cooper out, and you'd be like, oh my gosh out, because like that's been related to some sort of like fun thing for him right, no 100.
Speaker 1:You're hit the nail on the head right there so when you're trying to work through resource guarding, you're not re working through resource guarding directly. You're building a solid foundation, just like everything in dog training of you know boundaries and routine and clear communication and like engaging with the dog in something that they enjoy. So I talk a lot about active training sessions. So for me like me and Mike do pet shit very similarly, like, keep it as simple as possible, it is not overly complicated. But when I do go-home sessions with my owners, I don't have them do like any sort of duration place. Usually when I do place with dogs, it's an active training session. It's a place with dogs. It's an active training session. It's a send to place mark with yes dog comes back, you reward. Send to place mark with good dog stays there, you go to them reward.
Speaker 1:It's very fun, it's fast paced, it's high energy, it's low pressure, because that's the opportunity for the owner and the dog to build up their relationship, their communication and do something fun. And engaging in low pressure we're like, let's say, the dog breaks place. I'm not going to correct the dog right, we're just having fun, we're just doing a fun little training session, that's it. That's all it is. So that in moments when you do need to use your communication, in maybe like a higher pressure situation.
Speaker 1:Let's say, the dog is, you know, running out into the street, you can turn on your fun voice again and they're going to go, oh my gosh, and run straight back to you because you've practiced that like fun, engaging thing with them that they really enjoy. So like, if you do have a resource guarding dog, like, yes, we want to, you know one, take the resources away, add structure, add, you know the basics, walking on a loose lead, like it seems dumb but like it really really matters your dog being able to go into the crate stuff, like that, like the basics, and then establish some sort of relationship with the dog through something that they enjoy with the dog through something that they enjoy, whether that is tug or even playing fetch and mixing in some obedience commands like trade games, things like that, right, and it's it.
Speaker 2:It gets difficult when the dog gets home, but when it comes to specifically like clients, right, like when I feel like with clients, they're very much like monotone because they take it so serious. Yes, it's very much like sit down, like if someone was talking at you, like that, like where it's just like one tone well, mike talks like that, but but where it's very much just like one way all the time, like there's no inflection, like the dog, dogs pick up on that, right.
Speaker 1:So it's like making it very fun and engaging, like you're, it's your dog, have fun with it, like it doesn't need to be such a serious thing all the time, like just loosen up a little bit, you know yeah, but that's kind of what I'm saying in that I've noticed the difference between like the caesar camp people and like sport handlers in the sportier world is like I feel like the caesar camp people, like are not fun, like don't get me wrong, they do things.
Speaker 1:They just don't know any better I know I'm not, I'm not trying to like bash, but it it from the outside because, like I haven't always been involved in like the dog sport world, it seems like, oh, sport handlers are so tough and like, oh, their dogs are in the crates all the time and blah, blah, blah, blah and it's like bro, nobody is doing more shit with dogs than sport people oh yeah, I get it all the time like, especially when I post like videos of you know ven doing like the fancy feed and like the orbits and the weaves and all like all the fun ob stuff that I've taught him like.
Speaker 2:Oh, you must be so hard on your dog, you I see that I see that e-collar on him, you know. Or I see that prong collar on him. You must, you know, be correcting him all the time, like why don't you post the five minutes right before when you're correcting the shit out of your dog?
Speaker 1:well, no, it's like.
Speaker 2:No, like you, literally don't you guys have been in my training sessions. You see how, you see how I work.
Speaker 1:But like we're the same way. It's like you when our dogs like mess up and we're like she almost bit my face off, you know it's like.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Literally most of the session.
Speaker 1:Like obedience wise is playing with your dog, yeah, so I think, like my advice to owners is don't take it so seriously, like it's literally not personal, it's not like your dog is just doing dog things. Yeah, and it might seem personal and I'm saying that it's like your relationship, but like that doesn't mean you need to like take offense if your dog is resource guarding, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like again, it's something that you just have to recondition. The dogs just learned how to manipulate you. And some dogs it's not even necessarily like again, genetic, genetic. It's just the dogs figured out how to manipulate you, right? They don't want to do certain things and they've learned how to manipulate you.
Speaker 1:That's literally what it comes down to yeah, and so you need to put a leash on that dog and you need to make sure that you follow through with the things that you ask, like without a doubt, you have to do that 24 7 and like we do that with our dogs like it's not like with every little thing. So one of um the girls who is at my retreat, she has a dog who resource guarded and it was like a thing at the retreat, you know, we took my dogs and her dogs and there are a couple areas where her dog was resource guarding. So she actually commented on this and was like, oh my gosh, help me, tell me what I need to know. So there are a few signs that I picked up on when I initially saw him.
Speaker 1:I think that first day is he is a resource guarding dog, but I think a broader umbrella is he's a controlling dog. I don't think it necessarily is just tied to resources, it's he's trying to control everything, right, and this is what I see a lot and a lot of like you know, more aggressive dogs or dogs that use aggression are controlling. So what that looks like is one of my dogs was like overly excited and like not towards him, just like they were playing.
Speaker 1:I think it was like Minka and Millie were like wrestling how they do, and he came over and like several snaps several snaps at like Minka to like stop doing what you're doing, you know, and it's like that wasn't directed towards resource guarding, but later on, like he was resource guarding right, so like he was drinking water, and like the dogs walked past him and then he like snapped at them. So those were the first two instances that we saw with him. And then whenever we were hiking, we're out and about and all of the girls were like sitting on the ground, we're like sitting in the shade because it was hot, so we're like letting everybody like take a break and I wasn't really like closely watching, but someone on the ground was giving affection to Shiloh.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So somebody on the ground was like giving affection to the dog and then one of my dogs walked up and then he attacked my dog and then it became like a short little scuffle. I wouldn't say it was like a dog fight, but it was like a moment where everybody's like oh shit, you know yeah, it became a thing it became a thing, um, and so he was resource guarding affection in that moment.
Speaker 1:And so you know, like my advice to her is, some things that she could work on is just simply more structure and making sure to not give in to pushy behavior in little moments. Not give in to pushy behavior in little moments. So when he pushes in for affection, are we always giving him affection? Every single time he pushes in? If we tell him to get down, is he getting down? So I know one instance is we were out at lunch and he wasn't aggressive at all in this moment, but it was like a little moment where I was like this, this is kind of this I don't want to say causing it, but like this is, this is a pushy moment for him that he's getting away with, like he was standing up on the bench, um, and his two front paws yeah, he had his two front paws on the bench.
Speaker 1:Those are all little wins, right like exactly it all translates in the big picture, right like again her father was like petting him and then just like kind of feeding into that and yeah, and so he just kept like pushing into him and pushing into him, and that's another thing is dogs are very like body language focused, so like the more you can tune in to really pay attention to your dog's body language and like how they're posturing themselves into you or a big thing that I see with resource guarding dogs is they'll wrap their head around your legs or they'll sit on your feet, you know, or lean against you that the paw and the foot, yeah, yeah like people think that that, oh, that's so cute, you know, it's like affection and it's like that's not affection, like that's your dog, like claiming you you know, again, kind of going back to your point is like with, like in in, specifically, like talking about pets.
Speaker 2:It's like pet dog owners, it's like, oh, they only concentrate in their training sessions, where they don't understand that necessarily, like, everything that the dog does throughout its entire day is learning moments for the dog, right, so, whether that's something as small as like when they come in, are seeking affection Exactly what you said, right, yeah, in that moment, moment, that dog is getting a win, right, whether it's a resource guarding dog or not, right, the dog is forcing themselves upon you to get affection or food or whatever it is and it works and that's a win for the dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then later on, when you don't give it to them, for a normal dog, it's like okay, whatever. But for a dog that has that mental instability or has that like resource guarding, it's like well, what the fuck? You did it last time, why are you not doing it this time? Do it this time. Yeah, and then it becomes like pushier and pushier, and then it like, turns into more aggressive resource guarding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or even things like a dog whining to get out of the crate and like going and letting them out because, like they don't, they're whining to get out and so you're like, oh well, I'm gonna go and take them out and it's like that dog just told you and you did it, you know, and like, if so you know again, if zoe's whining in the crate and I go and let her out, it's nothing is going to happen, like nothing is going to progress that's where you just need to know your dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's just Zoe, you know. But, like for her, if she's trying to work through this, you know, like new resource guarding that she's seeing and his is mostly with other dogs, she needs to make sure that he's not in those situations, right? She needs to make sure that he's not in those situations, right? So, like we made sure that, like our dogs weren't going into his space when he was drinking water, you know, because we knew that was an area of conflict, or I'm not going to, I'm not going to pet him yeah I'm not going to give him affection and that might be seen as mean, but I don't want to give into that like pushy, demanding behavior.
Speaker 1:So it's more than just those moments when the dog is resource guarding, like it really is happening in all of the tiny moments throughout the day and just like your day to day with the dog you know Exactly.
Speaker 2:I actually have a question. So I actually got asked this recently and it's kind of a two-parter, where the first one was um, I had a friend who has a dog that resource guards, right, and she was going out of town and she was going to have a friend of hers watch the dog. How would you address that? Like so, the dog resource guards to create food, toys, okay, and affection from time to time. So in a situation like that where you're introducing a third party, where the dog already, again, it's a relationship thing and they don't have weeks or months to, you know, build a relationship with this dog, how would you address that?
Speaker 2:um, I would say as little contact as possible so at least what I tell my clients is like don't even give them commands, if you can get that you know first.
Speaker 1:Like so at least well I would say, if you can leave a slip lead on, just leave a leash on, but if it's you have a dog that would like chew it, then obviously you're not going to do that. But I would say, like, don't talk to the dog, don't, like don't look at the dog too long. Like you know, you are literally just hands to put the leash on and open the crate and slide some food in there.
Speaker 3:You know, in an ideal world, you drag the crate to the door open. In an ideal world, you drag the crate to the door. Open the door. Let the dog in the garden.
Speaker 2:Give him the Aussie treatment yeah. Least amount of contact yeah.
Speaker 3:Least amount of conflict.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that's exactly. So yeah, kind of said exactly. What I would say is like what I told you know my friend, was that essentially like we did, I had, I had them, you know, go out and I was like, hey, in the beginning, just get the dog comfortable walking next to him, because that was a big thing. He is really aggressive specifically towards males and she's a smaller female and so the dog was extremely aggressive towards males and the person that was going to be watching him was a bigger kind of domineering man. So I was like she told me like the week before and she was asking some questions, I was like, look for the next week, all you're gonna do is get the dog comfortable with him, just being next to you.
Speaker 1:Take two or no pressure. Oh, that's such a good point is even with like people no pressure yeah, like the dogs, you're not, he's not looking at the dog shit.
Speaker 2:Some dogs like have them start across the street, not even next to you, and then you slowly close that distance and then by the time that week was up, he was able to let him out Wasn't giving him commands, clip the leash on, took him out, brought him back in, that's it. And some people might say, well, like, oh, what is the dog supposed to do for that week?
Speaker 1:Nothing we. Some people might say well like oh, what is the dog supposed to do for that week?
Speaker 2:nothing, nothing we're just surviving. He can't handle it yeah, and that's okay 100. Okay, that's hard for people to understand.
Speaker 1:This is such a good point one of the things that this person put in their like call description is they're like, we're gonna have a lot of people over for the holidays and I want to use like it. I want to use it as an opportunity to train my resource, intense resource guarding dog and I'm literally going to be like don't know what you're going to do is you're going to create, train your dog so that by the time Christmas rolls around, you are able to comfortably create your dog and you put your dog on a leash, you walk them to the backyard and you bring them right back into the crate and like that's it.
Speaker 3:Why are you setting your dog up for failure?
Speaker 1:by putting it in a house but it's just because people don't know.
Speaker 2:No, for sure, for you know and even like setting them up, for there's a time and place for that, but in that specific scenario.
Speaker 1:Do not put innocent bystanders in your like, it's different protocol.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it's different when you're specifically working on those things with a trainer. Yeah, not just some random.
Speaker 3:Well, not just random, but like not just one of your family, but I mean, we were talking about that at the beginning you can't control people like your, your partner at the time, or like family members.
Speaker 1:They don't want to get it. Yeah, even like your parents. When they came, they're like, oh, tomah's so hard with his dogs, like he's so firm with them. And I was like, really, uh, I don't think so. And she was like, yeah, like walter.
Speaker 3:Walter used to be such a good boy before, like you know, when tomo would do things like stick his hand in his food and, and I was like, oh, yeah, oh yeah, he started somewhere too, but I mean also like at the time I never created him, but like he was the only dog, like clearly, like he needs to be created, like it's just dog training evolves as like your lifestyle changes as well, and uh, yeah family sometimes doesn't understand so for my friend who wants to work through her resource guarding, she needs to go back to basics.
Speaker 1:She needs to go back to a crate schedule, which she also I don't know that she does but she needs to go back to more structure. No bed or furniture. That's another big thing. If you're, if you have a resource guarding dog, whether they're resource guarding, food or whatever, like they do not need to be on the bed or on the couch. That is a privilege that they can maybe get later or maybe not, you know and you have to be okay with that and you have to be okay with that.
Speaker 1:All right, let me go through some of these questions, because we're just rambling on.
Speaker 2:I feel like we're kind of all over the place today, but we're we're hitting some good points yeah, I feel like at the end of it, like it all comes back to the back to the point at one point or another.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean for sure is there a link between a dog being really tired and then resource guarding the owner?
Speaker 3:I mean, we actually didn't talk about resource guarding humans, so I think that's a good point on its own.
Speaker 1:Um, I don't think the tired element really has anything to do with it I mean, I think it's just like anything else, like if you're tired, you're grumpy, yeah, you're more irritated.
Speaker 2:I would actually say, yeah, it does yeah, because I feel like when, when dogs are generally tired, is when they're going to revert back to like they're less tolerant behavior yeah, they're less tolerant, they're going to kind of do what they're comfortable with and so, yeah, I feel like when they are more tired, they're probably less or probably more likely to um. But again, it would be based off of like individual circumstances rather than like giving an umbrella statement, right? So it would really be dependent on the dog and I feel like that's where this specific topic is so hard.
Speaker 2:It's because it specific topic is so hard is because it's very like, so dog dependent yeah, it's so like specific per dog, per handler because I've also had just like feral dogs.
Speaker 1:Uh, under socialized dogs, we'll say under socialized. Let's say I had somebody who, like, rescued a dog that was like older and it was just a super insecure dog. That dog would resource guard. Is that because of like what the owner did? No, like she, that dog is just like a insecure dog and it's just like doing this behavior yeah, and I feel like I don't want to like again.
Speaker 2:I don't want to make an umbrella statement, but I feel like a lot of dogs that come from shelters generally do have some resource guarding issues, but that's also because it's like a natural thing yeah, this is another thing that I wanted to touch on is resource guarding with humans versus resource guarding with dogs.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, big difference huge, huge difference.
Speaker 1:My dogs technically all resource guard with each other, right. But again it kind of goes back to the like if I'm sitting here and I'm eating a bag of chips and you walk up and grab my bag of chips, I'm going to fight you. You know Like I'm going to be like bro, what the fuck you know. So it's like the same thing. It comes down to like their relationship with each other. So I know them and I know that they're not going to take it too far. So like, let's say, zb, right here, is chewing on a bone and Lucy walks up.
Speaker 1:Her favorite thing to do whenever Zoe has anything is to walk up to Zoe and just bark in her face. Just bark and hold in her face, right, until either Zoe walks away because she's annoyed or she will growl at Lucy. She'll like bare her teeth and she'll give her a little growl and Lucy will walk away. Right, because one, that's communication. That is how dogs communicate. I don't like to correct dogs for growling Right, because it's like hey, I'm glad that you're growling instead of just biting me, you know, because that is kind of the prerequisite, the dog saying try.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a building behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly so. I feel like resource guarding amongst dogs is a very natural like communicator thing. Yes, natural like communicator thing. Yes, the problem becomes when the dog cannot regulate their communication right.
Speaker 2:So like let's say they correct a dog.
Speaker 2:They go too far and I feel like even with that is also very like it can also be gender specific, like, for example again I'll use my dog as an example because she does this is she's very. She's significantly more tolerant of males, like then an Aries can get in her face and, like you know, be right there, and she's very like forgiving, like she lets them like take the, take the toy or whatever, and like do all those things. She is significantly less tolerant of females. She is very she'll, overcorrect. She'll, um, she'll, overcorrect. She's very much like she won't allow them in their, in her personal space and it was never something that it wasn't like a learned behavior, wasn't something that happened over time. Her just naturally doesn't. She doesn't get along with females very well.
Speaker 2:She's a dog. That again, going back to ob, uh, obedient versus well-behaved. She's a very obedient dog though, like I regularly use her as my demo dog for clients because she is very like specifically for males. She's a very tolerant dog and she's very forgiving in those sense right, like if they are overly in her, in her face or doing certain things that she wouldn't like she, she gives a very fair correction, like, again, both my males are not fake so they'll try to hump her and stuff like that single correction they back off. She'll stop. She's not going to pursue that issue any further. Right Versus with females. She might.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like I think you know, walter is like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Same-sex aggression is a thing.
Speaker 3:For sure, for sure, and, like with your friend commenting about the resource guarding, like we saw very early on, like a snappy behavior, and I was like, okay, I'm not gonna, you know, put walter in the mix because he also doesn't take corrections. Well, versus, like you know, your dogs were all females, he's a male. So, yeah, we assess that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we early on, but that's another thing too. Is like he over corrects right so like that's. Another thing too is like he overcorrects Right, so like that's where resource guarding with dogs becomes an issue, is like he's not just, like you know, baring his teeth a little bit.
Speaker 3:It's like snap snap, snap, snap snap.
Speaker 1:Like at other dogs, like if, like he would fight another dog, yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:Whereas, like, my dogs amongst each other are just like siblings you know, like growl to like, yeah, they're like, and then they're like okay, okay, you know and walk away.
Speaker 1:So sometimes people will see that and they're like oh my god, my dog is aggressive and it's like your dog's not aggressive you know they're just communicating, but if it escalates, then it's a problem, then it's a problem like to a point where your dog is actually trying to hurt another dog, or to where you can't control it, like that is a problem and that I would say is less training per se and more so management.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:So like that still is, you know, a relationship issue with you. I do think that training can help and structure and clear communication, like everything, comes down to those things. But at the end of the day, if a dog is a resource garter with other dogs, I will not put that dog in a room with toys on the ground.
Speaker 2:I also feel like your dogs in a room with toys on the ground. I also feel like your dogs. So if we're using this example of you know, your, your friend's dog at the retreat, right, like, I feel like your dogs are also like an anomaly because of the fact that obviously you're a trainer, right, like. So at least what I tell a lot of clients is like, like, advocating for your dog is such a big thing, right, like again, not putting them in those situations in the first place. But if you encounter yourself in that situation where it's like if, let's say, you're at the park, right, and your dog's playing or whatever, and a dog runs up to you, right, are you going to correct your dog for just playing? Like you know what I mean, like things like that, where it's it's really important, especially in those situations, to advocate for your dog, cause that that will then help build that relationship that we want to emphasize right, exactly, you're basically teaching the dog.
Speaker 1:Hey, it's not your job, I got you yeah.
Speaker 2:Like it's. It's not your job to defend yourself. It's like I got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll look out for you. I'll make sure that, like you're not in this uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and that goes so far right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Once the dog understands that hey, like there isn't these limited resources, I'm not going to lose these things right now Then you take that one step further and you're then like you're that layer of protection between the dog and another. You know another dog or another person that then you know that's another way you can manage and also like minimize resource guarding yeah, and it just overall eases their state of mind in in all aspects well, yeah, specifically especially with like doodles, right like because a lot of it is genetic.
Speaker 2:Going back to that, right it when there's that like genetic mental instability and franticness, right like when they have to over process and think so much. That also adds to the resource guarding and also adds to them being aggressive right, because it's like a bit of neurotic being yeah versus like hey.
Speaker 2:In that same situation, if the dog doesn't have to think and like, all I told the dog to do is down Right, and then I'm stepping in front and advocating for my dog, all he's thinking about in that moment is I have to maintain that down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and that kind of comes back to like being able to properly read your dog. Yes, which is the? Hardest part and tough to teach.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I feel like, feel like again people over complicate it yes, but also I think people just have a such lack of experience.
Speaker 1:You know like think about how many dogs you've been around in just the past year yeah, 100, yeah like just watching their body language.
Speaker 2:There is a lack of experience, but also like, if it's your personal dog, right, like I can tell when, like, generally speaking, right, what are some signs of aggression or resource guarding that escalates? Right, like you said, the posturing Right, the hackles going up baring teeth Right, very forward stance, like all of those things. Right, the hackles going up bearing teeth Right, a very forward stance, like all of those things Right. I've had client clients and friends who are like, oh, my dog's doing this, why is it doing that? Well, why are you allowing it? Right, like, why are you letting it get that far? There's signs that they show before it even gets to the hackles being up Right, they might back up, their ears, might get pinned back Right, all of those things are signs that they notice but they don't understand what it means. Yeah, right. So those are all things that can escalate to a much more serious situation.
Speaker 1:Or even like Ares, like he's not a resource guarder, but like when you're like oh, do you want to say hi and I'm like and I like come over and I like baby talk him and he's like I'll get this crazy lady away from me yeah it's like okay, so then I'm gonna like position my body sideways because, like, forward pressure is a lot to him.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna like give him a lot of eye contact, you know like, yeah, um, but I feel like in that you're absolutely right, but also in that context it's different, right, because there's two different factors that play into it with him, where it's like one, he's a mastiff breed or partly a little uncomfy, right, just like, just like a dog, that's like getting ready to resource guard or is like like, let's say, a dog's like drinking water and another dog walks by.
Speaker 1:What will happen if you have a resource guarding dog or a dog that's going to is they'll stop. They'll stop drinking and they'll get really stiff. And then the dog walks by and leaves and then they'll start drinking again. You know it's like people don't notice that. Or people don't notice the dog. That's like getting on the bench and pushing into them for affection. You know people don't notice that. Like they're petting their dog every single time. I'll literally be standing talking to somebody about like all right, we just finished our training, here's what you need to do. Don't pet the dog every time they walk up to you.
Speaker 2:They're like nodding, and then they come over and they start petting. No they're literally like yeah, for sure, Like just while they're petting yeah, petting the dog, and I'm like I literally just told you stop.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh gosh. I'm so sorry I forgot. You know like it's such like ingrained behavior. Yeah it really is, and so I think, like as with anything and this is what this is what we're gonna wrap this up on, because we've been yapping forever I think with anything in dog training, it's just like go back to the basics and learn how to read your dog every single dog is different and just hang out with your dog, just watch their behaviors and be very fun with your dog yeah, and just be very like intentional in like watching them.
Speaker 1:You know like literally like national geographic. Your dog just sit there and like literally yesterday I had perfect example.
Speaker 2:I had um aries, who is a newer dog to me. Um, I let him out around aria. He hasn't been around ven yet because, again, they're both very dominant males, but I know how aria is. Literally I let the two of them out and toma came out and I was just standing there watching them and he's like it's going good. I'm like yeah, that's it, like that's literally all it takes, like I'm just watching their behaviors. Now, if it builds, obviously I'm going to put a stop to it.
Speaker 1:They don't need to escalate it past a certain point, right, but literally just watching watching them, just watch intentionally, yeah, you know and watch your behaviors and like how you react to your dogs, like that's going to have the biggest influence on their behavior. I can sit here and say, oh dude, exchange games and do this and do that, and it's like you can do those until you're blue in the face. But if you don't learn to read your dog and you know, establish a relationship around boundaries and clear communication, then that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter the trade games that you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You got anything else to say, Toma? He looks sleepy. It's past his bedtime, it's past his bedtime. It's 7 pm.
Speaker 3:Hey, we're in a dimly lit car.
Speaker 1:He's in bed.
Speaker 3:It's past 9 o'clock. It's pretty late oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we will go ahead and wrap it up there. I'm going to plug myself a little bit here. If you guys would like to schedule a virtual session with me, I have opened up virtual sessions, so I'll include the link in the show notes for that, thelma, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, farouk, thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us, always a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thanks for being here in the van and you know yapping with us as always, and thank you so much for listening every week. We'll see you next week, Bye-bye.