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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Navigating Next Steps: A Follow-Up on Separation Anxiety and Reactivity
The journey from reactive, anxious dog to confident companion isn't always straightforward. In this follow-up session, we check in with a client who's been implementing changes to address her dog's separation anxiety, reactivity issues, and their overly-structured relationship.
What happens when we stop micromanaging our dogs and instead give them opportunities to make good choices? The transformation can be remarkable. We explore how to balance freedom with boundaries by allowing dogs space to explore while maintaining clear expectations. This delicate balance creates confident dogs who understand their world rather than anxious ones constantly looking for direction.
E-collar training serves as a perfect example of this approach. Rather than using it strictly as a correction tool, we discuss how it becomes part of a communication system that creates clarity and consistency. You'll learn how to match stimulation levels to your dog's state of mind, how to transition from leash guidance to e-collar communication, and when body language speaks louder than verbal commands. The goal isn't constant control but creating a dog who makes better choices without your intervention.
We also tackle the challenges of multiple-dog households, addressing controlling behaviors at doorways, and managing reactivity from different angles. Sometimes the most valuable training moments aren't about teaching new commands but about teaching dogs how to navigate their world with confidence.
Whether you're struggling with reactivity or just looking to give your dog more freedom while maintaining reliability, this conversation offers practical insights into creating the right balance for your unique dog. Ready to stop micromanaging and start enjoying a more natural relationship with your dog? This episode shows you how.
Visit us at theeverydaytrainer.com
Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. Today's episode is a part two to a virtual session that I had back in the end of February. So we're following up with her. If you remember, we were talking about separation, anxiety, reactivity, confidence building, and she was being pretty strict with herself and her dog. So we adjusted her training and now we're checking back in, fine tuning everything. So you guys are going to get to hear the part two and see how she's progressing in her training. This is a great episode. I know you guys enjoyed the first one so much. She's doing great. I think you guys will really enjoy this kind of next stage. You know the drill Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet back here. Hello, hello, hello. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good how are you? Oh, you know we're doing okay yeah, um, I was glad to hear Muffin's doing better yeah, she's doing much better.
Speaker 1:I was very worried about her yesterday, but she is alive and well and feeling like herself again. Yeah, that's awesome yeah yeah, how are things going with you?
Speaker 2:um, pretty good, um, busy, busy, um, but uh, I just graduated this past weekend, so it's just like a mess of a time. Um, thanks, um, but yeah. So now it's just like trying to get stuff back together, but, um, and I have my parents here and they're two dogs and it's all like in one bedroom apartment, so so it's a lot going on, but but once they leave this weekend, then, like Kobe and I are like on our own. To like reset next week.
Speaker 1:So we'll see how that goes, okay.
Speaker 2:But, um, okay, so there were a few things that I wanted to discuss with you.
Speaker 2:Um, so the biggest things were like e-collar related, and then just like him interacting with them was another one, and then like just like basic kind of reactivity stuff that's like interesting that came up.
Speaker 2:So like recall wise, um, we've been like I mean, you've seen some of the videos like we've been doing pretty good with that.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's been like I always walk him now on a 15 foot leash almost always, so that just kind of helps because then I can always practice that at any time and he walks free a lot of the time now, versus before, was like so structured, now it's the majority of the time is like pretty free, so, and and then like just practicing of like when I say with me, like then you're with me and free, then like go do it whatever you want to do, and he's really good about that. That's actually been like my little lesson of like noticing how I train something, because I would say with me and then think like I just want him in my general vicinity, whichever side, it doesn't matter, and then I would find it so weird that he was always moving to my right and then I realized that I had accidentally trained with me on the right side and not notice that. So this whole time I'm like why is he always like walking around me? It's because he's trying to get to where he thinks that is.
Speaker 1:He's like this is what you told me to do. I'm just doing what? You told me to do yeah.
Speaker 2:Those like expectations. I'm like learning, like I have to realize, like how I taught something to like have reasonable expectations, but otherwise like that's been pretty good. But I took him to a sniff spot and it's one that we've been to before, but only like one time. So like I was expecting him to be like very like oh my God, this is a whole new world. Because whenever he goes somewhere new like, he's very like not connected type of thing, like all the smells, all the worlds, it's like so different and that's totally fine.
Speaker 2:But so at first I did have him on the slip with me and then like on the 15 foot leash and with the e-collar, and then eventually like I kind of took that off to see how he would do, since we've practiced enough of him like dragging the leash, and this was like a whole like two acres so he had space to really get away from me this time and that was just like really messy, which like that was expected, because we've never done it quite at that distance before, like it's always been 15, 20 feet, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Um, but it was like really messy. So I was trying to figure out like how to handle that or how to train that, because one thing of like I could every. So I was trying to figure out like how to handle that or how to train that, because one thing of like I could every time that I was like, okay, this is getting too messy and I want to like put the leash on great like recalls. Fine with that. But then when it's like off, now I'm like trying to find the right level and it's like if it was too high then he would just sit there scratching like oh my god, I don't know what's happening, and then if it was low enough, then it would just take like a lot of like low stimming for him to really be like. Oh wait, I'm supposed to like recall again. So it was like this real balance so what did it look like?
Speaker 1:what is messy?
Speaker 2:okay, so, yeah, so it was like um, so I keep it, like when I do the e-collar, like I keep it around, like if it was his neck then it would be around here, right, like I keep it pretty low, um, because it also is the winged one, and like it's the sensitive ones, so because he would wear them for such a long time that it would irritate him, so I keep it pretty low. But he would go and it was like, let's say, he'd go like the full acre and I'd like walk to the other side, um, of like the one and a half to two acres it was, and if I would call, then he would like ignore. And then if it was too high, like I think I started at like a 14 or something, because I was trying to low stem him and in like a in that type of distance. Usually it's like, let's say, 20s, 30s, whatever, so it was like 14, 15.
Speaker 2:It ended up being that it was just like irritating him, like I guess it was too high, so with this one he tends to then scratch. So he just sit there and like scratched, and then I lowered it and then, once it was around like a 10 or whatever, then he would like look up like he was looking at me, but then he would like take a while to be like, okay, now I'll come. So it was just like a lot of doing that um, and then like eventually he would respond, but it was still like he needed the low stem, like it was never going to be like I say come and he comes. If he was on the leash and I'm like come, then he's coming, but not like if it was just the, the um, e-collar, then it would take constant like tries or constant low stemming okay.
Speaker 1:Um, so are you tapping him at those higher levels when he's scratching, or are you pressing and holding so tapping? Okay, do you stop tapping when he scratches?
Speaker 2:I lower and then go again Like I. At first I was continuing to do and then I was like this seems like it's just like not getting through to him because it's just like too high. So then I would lower, then stim, and then he'd be like shake it off and be like oh okay, now I understand and come back.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what level was the higher?
Speaker 2:level at. I think at that time it was like a 15. I want to say it was like a 15. Then I was like, oh, that was too high for him at this level, or like it was just too. It was like 15, 16, somewhere in that range, and then the lower end was like a 10 okay, so the 10 is what you dialed down to get him to come back.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, um, the scratching at the collar is very like normal. Basically they cause sometimes we'll learn like, oh, I scratch and it turns it off. You know, and it's kind of like a displacement behavior where it's like, uh, this thing is uncomfy, rightfy, right, or like if you're uncomfy, you're gonna like I like twiddle my rings or you know, like things like that. It's just kind of like, uh, I don't, I don't really know what to do. He kind of got like stuck there. So that would be the moment where I would like walk up, grab my long line and like guide him towards me. But I would almost like guide him towards me, but I would almost.
Speaker 1:I I feel like I know like exactly how he is. He's like he knows the things. He's just very slow about them and he gets like stuck, like. He just like gets mentally like, oh, I don't, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:You know, I would almost say like, are you facing him when you're doing this? I would leave. I would leave him keep walking. Yeah, because you're facing him right and you're like come, come, and he's like I don't know, I would like keep tapping and like leave, be like come on, come on, come on. You know like pull him towards you with your body language, because our body language is kind of like contradicting that, and so when he gets stuck like that, like think of like okay, how can I add more clarity if I don't have my long line on, then I'm gonna use my body language, got it, you know? So use your body in those moments, squat down like come on, come on, come on, come on. You know like use your annoying dog mommy voice, let's go. You know, get them moving, cause he's just kind of like like locked in there.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it was like that, where it was like he was looking at me like I. I think I know what you're asking me, but now I just like I'm too focused on this feeling.
Speaker 2:Yes, and turning it off. Yeah, yes, that was exactly what it looked like, um, but that was just like the only thing. And then it was like if I had it at the lower level and it was, then it was like 10, then maybe eight, like the longer we were there, because then he was getting hot and tired like immediately, because he's never had so much space to just run like that um. So then, like then he was like recalling, but but just like kind of like slow, like of like I'm too tired for this game, like I know what you're saying, but I don't want to. But he was responding, but and then it was more fun, like when I made it like a game of like there was like a hill and I would like hide behind the hill and then call him, and then he's like oh, now I have to go find her.
Speaker 1:And that was more fun for him. And that's when I would like see like lightning speed type of thing of just like now he's gonna come. But if I'm just like standing there like come on, he's like no, yeah. So I would practice like think of it like a really big game of your walking drills and this is like off leash. It doesn't necessarily need to be on on leash, but like let's say, he's 20 yards away from you and you want him to come back to you tap, tap, come on, come on, come on. And you're gonna run the other way, like literally run away, and then as soon as he starts coming back to you, tapping stops so he comes back to you. Yeah, good job, run away again, come on, come on, come on, tap, tap, tap. So instead of like our leash pressure going on around those like directional changes, it's like our tap got it.
Speaker 2:And then it's like, if it's somewhere new where it's like that, where like he very rarely ever goes there and it's just like a lot for him, is it okay to low stim him until he's like so used to it that then I like then go up and I like kind of start high stimming at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whatever is work like, whatever works, got it, you know, perfect, yeah, so just kind of like play around with your levels and figure out what level works for him in that moment. Yeah, he'll always tell you, you know. And so just think, like anytime things get messy. Okay, how can I add more clarity to this? If I don't have my leash on my body, language is my directional guidance? Okay?
Speaker 2:Totally get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes so much more sense.
Speaker 2:And then so then with the e-collar, cause now we've kind of done it, we're like pretty much all our walks have the e-collar at this point, um, and I think that's just because I'm constantly trying to practice it.
Speaker 2:So then when we get moments to have just that he already like is so used to it type of thing, um, but then the difference is is that I do feel like then I have such a difference of like when I do try to walk him without it, then I'm like maybe it's like me more that's lost, but I'm thinking it's him of like I'm not sure how to handle like the corrections I guess without the e-collar, or like how to like redirect him completely in those moments, cause, like, if he gets too stuck and the leash isn't working, I can use the e-collar. I feel like I always have the fail safe of it, but usually it does work. But then or I can just like correct if I need to, but if I don't have it, then I'm feeling like he just like completely disregards, or like he knows when he doesn't have it on, type of thing he definitely knows when he doesn't have it on yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just how to deal with like the difference, I guess, and like behavior type of thing, or how to correct without it okay, give me a moment when, like you would want to correct him, give me like a situation I think like leave it.
Speaker 2:Leave it is a big one. So like if he sometimes we have leave it up, like he's starting to get fixated and I will leave it. Leave it is a big one. So like, if he sometimes we have leave it of, like he's starting to get fixated and I will use leave it for that and like, if I have the e-collar, like I can always use that, like I can start with that, and if he doesn't respond now I have the e-collar. If I don't, then like he's just not really gonna without me, just like completely, just like changing direction, like there's no way to like correct that he's not responding to that mark. That I know he knows yeah, I would.
Speaker 1:Uh, if you don't have your leash, do a direct, or sorry, if you don't have your e-collar, you're just gonna have to do a directional change, okay? Um, that is where a valuable no comes into play. Got, it is always going to be followed by like a relatively high consequence.
Speaker 1:So that like in moments like that, when you're doing something that I really don't want you to do, no, and then you'll be like oh, shoot, yeah, the consequence coming with. That being said, if a dog is e-collar wise, they're gonna be like yeah, okay, yeah, I. I personally think that, like dogs are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. I think they know they smell it, like they a hundred percent know when they have the e-collar on and when they don't.
Speaker 1:So in those moments like you're just kind of left with directional changes and using your leash, and like you can try to be firm with your leash, um, like, give a, you know a firm pop. Hey, no, pop, pop, pop, until he like redirects back to you. But even that sometimes that's not enough and it can just be like an agitator, you know, like so if he's not super sensitive to the leash, he's gonna be like yeah, whatever lady. So think, like in the moment the punisher is like you don't get to keep moving forward, we're just going to go the other way, the different way, got it, and then to me, then we'll turn around and go back, but if you start to fixate again, we're just going to change directions and just always be more consistent than he is so then, in that case, with building the valuable, no, is it okay to do that with the high level e-collar of like that's a no and like correcting it that way, to like keep building that Cause I feel like we're starting to do that, but I haven't fully done it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I personally I don't love leave it. For that reason? Um, because, like, how did you teach it?
Speaker 2:How did you teach leave it, leave it um, we actually did it with the figure eight, so it was so. It was like he would fixate on things and then like or he would like dig deep and then like, be stuck in the ground, so then it would be leave it and then leash pressure. So he did learn it with leash pressure, but it was a figure eight. So like it literally taught him of like my head gets lifted up. So he does know it, which is why I know that he knows leave it at this point, because I'll say it and then he'll look. So, like I know, like he, like he'll. Sometimes it's not even look at me, he just knows I can't look at that anymore. Like he'll just look away from whatever it is.
Speaker 1:So I know that. What does, what does leave it mean?
Speaker 2:So for that, if it's like leave it and I'm fixated, it's my head like moves away from that, it's pretty much that kind of concept of like my head moves away from whatever that is. If it's leave it and I'm like looking down and like I'm about to go at something, leave it means I've got to move away from it. It's like that type of thing. So it's more of like a head movement, of like I'm just going to change direction, type of thing.
Speaker 1:Not always like you have to tune into me necessarily, but like you just can't be tuned into that anymore. Yeah, so you could do leave it. And then, if he doesn't do it, no, followed by stim got it, you know. So. Leave it is the behavior of moving away from something. Yeah, you know. So I would practice what that means in a context without the nose loop Got it? Make sure that there's like a lot of clarity around that. So if we want leave it to mean like move away from something you could maybe put like a pile of treats on the floor, walk past it, leave it, shuffle backwards, comes back to you. Yes it, you know. So. Like practice that as one of your commands if we want him to listen to it in moments like that. Leave it is move away from the thing or disengage with the thing. Got it? Um, yeah, and then when you don't follow through on that, no consequence understood, got it.
Speaker 2:So, instead of correcting the, leave it correct, like with the no, and build it up that way, correct?
Speaker 1:yeah and no, like if we've never added a consequence following that, um, you can start doing that with the e-collar. But just you have to pick one thing at a time that you want to work on. So like, let's say you know, I have a dog that's like jumping up on people, I'll work on just that. I'm not going to walk around correcting you for everything, but I'll correct you for that one thing. You know, if you're jumping up, no e-collar stim goes on. You're jumping up, no e-collar stim goes on. Once we have a dog that's no longer jumping on things, then I can go to you know, leave it Right. So let's say, I'm practicing, leave it. And then the dog doesn't listen. And then I say, no, you might not even have to use your corrector because the dog is like, oh, I'm going to stop doing that thing, I'm going to disengage because I don't. I want to avoid the consequence, got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then in that case, if it's like like on our walks, where it's like sometimes, like the corrector is more of like you didn't listen to the first command of whatever it was, so like it's now like OK, let's say like I recalled you, recalled you, you didn't come, now like the next time is going to happen, or with leave it, like those are really our only two, I feel like leave it and come are like the only times, so like that's where I'm going to correct it and I think maybe stop as well, like I'll say stop and then he'll be like okay, but like you're still moving, so I can keep moving, and I'm like no, it's like stop is stop, um, so I think those are like the only three we use it. So in that case is it like only pick one of those things that I correct and then the others are like directional changes type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah in the beginning, when we're starting to add more meaning to our no Okay.
Speaker 2:Got it and then let's see the other thing. So then, since he's obviously noticing like the difference of like I have the-collar and I don't, and then keeping like consistency, should he be wearing it more in the house or like, should I also have him like drag a leash in the house, like, depending on the situation, like should I be having him wear it more to make sure that, like I'm following through with like come, like I think I don't follow through with like recall in the house as much as I do calling him in the house a lot um, recently, yeah, because the other dogs are here so I'm having to like recall him off of them a lot.
Speaker 2:So I feel like in that case I am.
Speaker 1:Otherwise I very rarely do okay, I would definitely have your e-caller on, especially with the other dogs. So I think, like new situation, I need my extra guidance. Okay, got it, you know. So, if there's other dogs in the house and you need your extra guidance, have your e-collar and your leash on. Or just like everyday life, like I think dog trainers will tell you, like your e-collar should be on all day because you don't want a dog. That's e-collar wise. But like they know, they know you know, and like my dogs don't have e-collars on all the time. I take them off. I put them on if we're doing an off-lease session or I'm going somewhere new where I need more guidance, you know, right?
Speaker 1:Um, I do think that you micromanage him a little bit too much. Yes, yeah. So, with that being said, instead of trying to solve issues by always putting him into command, give him the opportunity to just you know, see what he does and then, if he doesn't make the right choice, then you can correct him. So like, for example, let's say he's being too forward with the dogs in your house. Yeah, let's say he's being too forward with the dogs in your house, yeah, instead of saying come and calling him back over to you, give him a chance. Let's say, maybe he puts a paw on top of the back of one dog. I would stim for that got it. You can hang out there, you can play with them, but if you're too forward I'm gonna correct you. And so what that's gonna do is that's gonna start to teach him how to make better choices for himself, so that you don't have to micromanage him so much.
Speaker 2:Got it. Yeah, I think like that's what we've been, like we've been trying to do. I think the reason I've had to recall him now isn't because of him, but because of the other dog cause like I'll let him cause there's two, I'll let him, for the most part, like approach them because I don't think he's gonna do anything wrong, like I know he's pretty chill with them. But there's one who like gets just randomly, like just like starts going off on him, like very random. It's hard to tell like when she's gonna do it, but she'll just do it. Um, like sometimes you could see her like start to stiffen up and that's when I'll recall. Or like she, like he, like it's his house, but like if she's sitting on the couch and he goes like walk just past the couch, she starts kind of like baring her teeth. So like in that case I'll recall him just to avoid her suddenly jumping on him. And that's fine, yeah, versus, in other cases, if I see him just going to like sniff them, except her, if I see him going to slip the other one, I'm like he'll be fine, like he'll figure it out, and if she moves away, he'll move away. But like if the other one is there, then I feel like I have to to avoid like another fight type of thing. Yeah, yeah, for sure, um, and then actually like talking about that, so how to kind of, I guess, figure that Because so we have her, we have Mimi, she's really the one that just gets like aggressive.
Speaker 2:The other one is like Lola, she's really chill, pretty much Like he can go and sniff her. She gets scared of big dogs easy. So like she'll like go create space for herself. Of like I don't want this anymore, which is like fine. And then it's like okay, kobe, if you're following her, like she already said no, like she's moving away, that's it Versus. Like the other one, like she's okay with like going up and like sniffing other dogs, but if he turns around and just goes to like sniff her, like if she's like standing, and he goes to like sniff her butt, quick, boom, she goes to bite. If it's like he's walking past the couch and super chill way and actually the right way, so I want him getting corrected, thinking he can't approach dogs that way. But then I don't know how to handle it of like, how to teach them to kind of like interact correctly.
Speaker 2:Are they going to be around each other a lot, it seems like that because it seems like wherever I move, my parents are going to be around each other a lot it seems like that, because it seems like, wherever I move, my parents are going to be moving and then these two dogs are going to have to like coexist in some way. Even if it's just like a week, like here and there type of thing, it's enough where, like, they do see each other and spend, like like now they train her right, like that's how it's feeling, right, so because then so is it like keep her on a leash and then maybe like, do like a turnaround, let him get that moment to sniff, and then like, okay, you're done. Or like how does she get used to? Like he can approach her type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I personally I wouldn't have her on furniture if okay, like a little bit guarding the furniture, yeah, exactly, and I would have her on leash and teach her to move away, teach her okay, yeah, like starting to just leave, just yeah just move away, you know, guide her away um teach her how to, you know, avoid the conflict that she's creating yeah, she's definitely creating.
Speaker 2:Uh, so like that's the other thing too, of like with toys, that we have it up like obviously they're all his toys and she gets very like possessive of toys. So I've done it where, like I've had him in the crate and let her play so that he can see other dogs can play with my things and it's totally fine and mom can play with other dogs and it's totally fine. But that, or have him in place and show him like they can like do this thing and then, like you can chill in place and like it's totally fine. Everybody gets their turn, um, but with her it's much harder to do that. So is it like practice a place type of thing with her and then like keep her like in place and let her see that like he can play and like she doesn't have to like start charging him every time? Do you think yes?
Speaker 1:okay, got it. Yeah, think of impulse control on her end. Okay, yeah. So like one of the things that we'll do whenever we train dogs is we'll teach them like a down stay or we teach them place and then we take out your dogs so I'm gonna train this dog in front of you and you have to stay there and you're down, you know, and then we'll switch.
Speaker 1:Got it okay? Um, and then, as far as toys, when all of the dogs are out, I would put them up. I would not have toys. I'm really big on like. I do not like toys. I do not like playing with the dogs when there's multiple dogs. Got?
Speaker 2:it okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So then like in that case, like have them in the room, have him play, and then type of thing like switch off dogs type of thing, like if all of the dogs are out, put all the toys up got it and then, if you're gonna work on her impulse control, have her on place, tethered back to something, and when she gets upset, that he's, you know, playing with a toy in front of her no, walk over, give her a pop on the leash, put her back into it down, got it. Just because we're out here playing doesn't mean that you get to intervene.
Speaker 2:you know and it sounds to me what kind of dog is she, she's a Lhasa Ops opso mix, so she's like 20 pounds and she just like it's so weird because the way so opso. If you knew, like the um, the shih tzu, it's one of the dogs that makes the shih tzu. I've recently learned this we've had a lot. I didn't know that. That's like how that works okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:I know, I know the long hair yeah, so she's like she's a terrier version of that, like she's mixed with some sort of terrier. She's like a bunch of mixes but um, but yeah, and we've had her since she was baby so we did this. Um, she's eight, so she's just kind of. And then the other one, she's maybe 10. We found her in the street.
Speaker 2:She's a brussels griffon cure oh, I love brussels griffons yeah, and she's like perfect, and she's like super chill, so she doesn't get like crazy unless all dogs are going crazy. Then she's like I think I'm supposed to be part of this like, then she'll like show up, but otherwise she's like I want nothing to do with this. Um, but so she doesn't fight him. If anything like they can lay next to her.
Speaker 2:I've been working honestly on his impulse control with her, because he used to have it. If, like she has this sort of like smell to him, that's like, oh my god, I have to chase that thing like I love it. Um, I don't know, I feel like something in his head goes like squirrel and he like doesn't know what to do. Um, so we've been working on that of like I'll sit her in front of him and like let him sniff, but let him know of like you can sniff of like this long. But like then at some point, like you're just being rude, like you gotta, you know, when she starts kind of like that it's like okay, now we're done, like the session's over, yeah, um, but, and he's been doing great with that, so that now, like they can kind of just coexist and like he's like I love her, she's like I love him, they're chill, but me, me, it's like we haven't gotten there at all, I would.
Speaker 1:I would just create her, tell my mom that, or tether you know, you could always put her in a leash and like tie her to a doorknob.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that. So with that, with dogs that small like 20, 20 pounds roughly, do you use a slip or would you use just her harness?
Speaker 1:um, definitely a slip. It would if you tie her back on a harness, think like you're doing bite work, basically doing that yeah, that's true, yeah, building it okay, uh, because I've been trying to figure that out.
Speaker 2:I did it one time while he was crated that I was like I have like 10 leashes. You would think I have like 10 dogs. I have too many leashes for the amount of dogs I have. But then I was like okay. So then I got her on it and then started doing like the walking drills inside with her, because they walk on harnesses back. So then my mom's like I wonder why they pull. I wonder why they pull um. So then I was like if I do the walking drills with her, maybe that'll help. And then we started doing plays. So now she jumps up there and whatnot.
Speaker 2:So we did start training that um, the other one just does it because she's so food motivated that she's like I'll go absolutely anywhere you tell me to. And Mimi's like sort of there. But like she has the fear of like I don't understand what this thing is like. I started her on treadmill and like the second it turned on she wanted to die. Um, I was like we've done on and off, like I did the whole bit, but then the second I turned on she was like this is the worst thing in the world. So that was a no but um for now.
Speaker 2:But place she is figuring out, um, but with like I haven't. I just haven't like tether her place. I've tried to do it of like creating distance and then like putting her back on type of thing, but not the tether, yeah, um, so we're working on that. But yeah, it's mostly just the like way that she'll just kind of like turn on him and then just like completely charge him and then he kind of goes into what I don't know if it's a play bow or if it's just she's so tiny that he feels like he has to go shorter. I can't tell. Like I think he thinks like it's supposed to be a play, but then he feels like her aggression and feels like now he's got to go forward. So it's kind of like just like two dogs of like totally different sizes that shouldn't be fighting because it's way too dangerous. But it's easy to step in between and kind of tell him no, it's harder to like pull her off, type of thing.
Speaker 1:I mean she's definitely like terrier vibes, for sure. Yeah, does he like? Is he doing back hips up type of bow, or he just like gets into a down?
Speaker 2:he gets like kind of like yeah, it's like hips up and then like downward dog. It was totally like that. I mean that's good, yeah, like he. He doesn't get like totally aggressive, he does have it where, like if he, if she, gets like two in his face that he'll like lift the paw, like shut up type of thing, but not too much of like. I think he's only had it one time that he got super excited and charged, but it I still don't think it was like this more aggressive thing, like it was more of just like I'm so excited I don't know what to do with this energy and she was in the line of fire, like it was just like she just happened to be there.
Speaker 1:Well, it sounds like he probably doesn't take her seriously. You know, it was probably just like all bark yes with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah and that is how let's play, yeah, and then she's like no, I hate you, that's how it is, but she's like that with all dogs and with all people.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of just this thing that we deal with but dogs are really good at like, for the most part, reading each other. You know so, like, if he is like, oh, whatever, let's play, then it probably won't escalate too much. I wouldn't worry too much about it. You know, like that's kind of what I'm looking for whenever I intro dogs, so like I'll take out like lucy, because she's really good at reading dogs. And if I have a dog that's like losing it and she's like, yeah, let's play, it's just them kind of like trying to diffuse, and they see that like, oh, this dog's not really being that serious, you know like I can diffuse this, versus if I have a dog that is like more serious, lucy's like nope, bye, and she'll literally just like leave the room. She's like, no, I don't want anything to do with this, you know so, like the fact that he's going into a play bow is good. It means that like the smaller dog is is not that serious, and he's just like, oh, come on got it, so he's.
Speaker 2:So he's reading it of like you're just having an insecure moment and like you're gonna be totally fine and we're gonna be chill like like got it, like diffuse it, you know got it. Okay, that's good, because then I was reading it of like is he just waiting for the moment to be like, I'm gonna get her now?
Speaker 1:what you do have to be mindful of is him switching over into prey, right. So if they start like running really quickly and it it can escalate to where you know a dog goes from like play to like a more serious prey drive and make sure that you disrupt that because that could lead to a fight, because the smaller dog will be like whoa, I'm not prey. Turn around and be like you know, yes and I think I've had that like.
Speaker 2:That's why I think I was trying to work him with Lola, because he would have that up like when she runs. If you've ever seen a little Brussels Griffon run outside, like their ears start like going and like they look like bunnies, like they don't run, they hop. It's weird but it's the best thing. But to him he would like turn around, see that and like start off his play. But then once he got close enough and she was like I don't love this, then he's like wait, like, and like with flip energy. And that's when I was like okay, let's go, like we gotta leave, because then he like didn't realize like what was going on.
Speaker 1:And now it's like now it seems more like a prey drive of like then versus like I was just playing, because I thought you were playing, because once she pulls back now he's like I'm gonna keep going yeah, so that would be a no moment when you see that shift no high level e-collar stim and think when a dog is in prey, like a more serious prey drive, you're gonna need a higher stim to pull them out of that right, um, and then I think that was mostly that with like interacting with them, of just like she clearly needs some of the work.
Speaker 2:But one thing that I've noticed with him this is like the weirdest thing, cause, like reactivity, wise, like I can tell, like we had it like this morning, like somebody stopped in the sidewalk and was just like staring at us and he's like nope, like he was like nah, I don't like that, and like that was a the moment where he was going to go, totally saw it coming, totally fine, and then, like some dogs, like he has it like there's a Great Dane that lives here. He doesn't like him, like that's just. I know when it's going to come in those moments, but he has this weird sort of reactivity that I'm not sure how to work Like otherwise, like I know I can like change a direction or something, but he has it where, like if a dog is behind him, he has a lot of reactivity. It's really weird and I'm not sure how to work it, because, like a directional change just means like crossing the street, but then he's already latched on it and then it's like dogs are going to walk behind you or like people are going to walk behind you. So I don't want to like completely like be like, no, we're not going to do that, and he has it now with them.
Speaker 2:Of like he's used to assuming that like he leaves the apartment first, they go after him, so then he stays the whole walk, like going, like that, like watching for them. So I've started to kind of correct that of like okay, like you can have a look. But then once I'm like leave it, we're done, we're moving on. If you keep coming back, now I'm going to start correcting it of like not looking behind you. So he has that. But I guess, like is that the way to train that of like stop looking behind you type of thing and just like keep going forward? Because then he stays stuck, of like I saw something back there yeah, I would correct that that's going to be another.
Speaker 1:No, got it. So, like with our walk, I just need you to follow my lead and if you're too fixated on the dogs behind me, like, I'm just going to keep like e-collaring and leash pressuring you and we're just going to keep moving forward. So e-collar ring and leash pressuring you and we're just going to keep moving forward. So e-collar stem goes on. No, whenever he's looking back, he comes back.
Speaker 2:Good, he turns around again no, stem got it. Oh, that was the other one. So then, if I correct right, do I like I know it goes either way and I think different people have different perspectives on it or like how long you do it? Do I mark it with good when he does finally respond, or do I not?
Speaker 1:because then I'm like reinforcing that, like you're gonna get a reward at the end I would still mark it still mark it the whole point of our marker words is that, like, even if we don't have food, we can still get a, a response hey, this is what I want you to do. Keep doing it Right. So like, good for us is like, that's what I want. Keep doing that. So go, goes on when you're doing the thing that I don't like. Good, goes on when you're doing the thing that I do want you to do, and you can still reward that you know. So I posted a video of me working muffin, we're working through her reactivity. She'll like look at the trigger. I can say no. She'll look back up at me good pay, got it. Okay, you know we can still reinforce the like hey, you looked away. Just make sure that you're marking him engaging with you with good and then rewarding got it.
Speaker 2:So not like just like correcting and then like good, it's like correcting, he engages fully, and then it's like good, I'm good, yep, got it, yeah, and does he like?
Speaker 1:will he take food from you in those moments?
Speaker 2:um, so it depends like how far gone he is, and that's that's something I've been trying to work where it was like I guess is this the right way to do this? Like it happened this morning of like he saw a dog and he kept going and then I was like, oh, that's great, like good, like I let him have it and I just like that was just like a directional change or like not even a directional change. We were already going that way, but I keep walking. That dog keeps walking the opposite way and I'm just like, okay, let's go. And I like didn't do anything and he had 15 feet, like if he was going to react he was going to and that was it. I was going to keep moving, but when I noticed that he was still following, then I went to like market and then he ignored it. So then in that case, I'm like marking that constantly.
Speaker 1:Wait, say that again, Like when did you ever correct him in that?
Speaker 2:No, no, we've been working that of just like. I've been trying to give him the space of like seeing if he would leave the decision. Yeah, like I've been trying to like, especially with Leave it With People. I've been trying to do that because then I really don't want to constantly correct him for people, cause like that's like dogs, sometimes, if it's if they're too close, sometimes it's like what I have to do of like this is about to happen and I have to move or I have to correct or I have to react. But if it's people and they're like kind of far away or dogs are further away, then I'm like okay, and I'll give him the space to make the choice of like like you know, looking, and then like knowing.
Speaker 2:But in that case, in that case it was like that dog was going and we were going to walk past something anyway. So I was like I'm going to, his vision is going to get cut off from it anyway. There's no point in correcting it. So I just turned and then kept walking and he didn't react. So at that point I went to like mark it. So I was like yes, and marked that, and then he just didn't want to take the treat, because it was still just a confusing moment for him.
Speaker 2:I guess it was a lot. I saw this dog, but you kept leaving and I don't know what happened. So then I just turned into a walking drill after that, since he wasn't taking treats. And then once he was taking treats with the walking drills, then we move on.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah. So it just means that, like in those moments, food reward is not like that rewarding to him. I would almost like, let's say, I'm walking a dog and I'm trying to practice our like off leash skills. So I'm thinking of, I have a German shepherd with us right now and that's kind of the stage that we're in, where I'll hold the end of our you know 10 foot leash and I just need you to walk with me. You don't have to be in a perfect heel, but like you have to walk with me and I'm giving him about like a three second rule where you can look one, two, three. If you do not look away and start moving with me, I'm just going to tap on my e-collaller and I don't even say anything.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's when you, when you linger for too long and you're not paying attention to me, I'm gonna tap and then they're like oh, okay, come back over to me, good, and if you can, good, pay in position, right. So, like, e-caller goes on. When you're out of my bubble, got it? Food happens next to me. Okay, got it yes.
Speaker 1:So he's way more likely to hang out to me next to me, cause he's like oh yeah, I get paid here, this is nice. I do get distracted every now and then, like, because we've been letting him play with the other dogs so much, now he's like oh dogs, like I want to play with the dog. So he'll just kind of like wander off to the side and I'm not even saying anything, I'm just tapping on my e-caller because I want him visually checked into me. I don't want him to have to rely on like Duke, duke, come, come on, let's go Right. Cause then he's like oh, I can check out everything else. I don't really have to worry about her because she'll tell me when I need to focus on her, but I want him visually tuned into me. So I'm not even going to say anything when I tap on my e-caller. So it's going to be like hey, if you're not paying attention to me, e-caller stim goes on because I'm over here and you're still fixated on this over here it yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's so, like the way I've done it, since we've been trying to work on like yeah, of like letting him make the choice, and I've seen so many moments of where he does and then moments where I'm like he's not gonna make the choice, um, like this is not going the way I thought it was going. Um, so in that case, like I've done, like he's been 15 feet and then I see that there's something and he's getting excited and then like yeah, then it's like, in that case, if I've done it instead of just starting the e-collar, then I've done it like Kobe, let's go, and then if he doesn't, then starting the e-collar yeah.
Speaker 1:So I would just try, like now that you've set the expectation for him, like he knows what's expected, like start holding him accountable to it, and that. That's kind of what I mean, where I think we're finally to the point where we can stop micromanaging him so much and start just like, hey, there's a consequence if you're, if you don't continue to walk with me. You know, like I'm not asking a lot from you. I just want you to like visually check in with me, and you're not visually checking in with me when you're fixated on this other dog for too long.
Speaker 2:Got it.
Speaker 2:So in that case.
Speaker 2:So where I have it the most is with like, not even like other things, because sometimes, like if I like, if I see, like he's ahead of me and I see something, and then I just like start pulling back, he'll notice like oh wait, she's moving the opposite way and we just do a drill, like that's gone, and like totally fine, like if I'm just redirecting, like I, like I don't even want to give you the chance, let's just like have fun In those cases, like that's totally fine.
Speaker 2:So where I have it is more with like the sniffing of, like he's sniffing on the walk, and then he gets stuck, and then now you've hit the 15 feet and I'm like let's go, and you're like no, but this is so interesting, you know, and then that's when the correction happens. So is it like you? So like, do I give him like I don't know, like, let's say, like 15 seconds, whatever. That's long too, but like whatever it is, to sniff, and then I start moving and then, if he's not at the 15 feet, like moving with me, then it starts like tapping I want your e-collar to go on before leash pressure goes on.
Speaker 1:So, okay, we're trying to mimic off leash.
Speaker 1:So I I want leash pressure to go on only when we need directional guidance. Okay, got it, you know. So I would like, when you see that you're starting to get to the end of the leash tap and that's kind of his boundary is going to be that, like you know, 15 foot leash or whatever the length is is is like, until you can show me that, like you're going to recall a hundred percent of the time when I tap this e-collar which, like, when you went to your sniff spot you saw that that wasn't it. So your bubble is 15 feet away from me. So when we're approaching that 15 feet, I'm going to tap. He's going to look up. He's going to see that you're far away. If he doesn't look up, I'm going to look up. He's going to see that you're far away. If he doesn't look up, I'm going to dial up on my e-caller until I get a response from him. If he gets stuck, then we use our leash guidance.
Speaker 2:Leash that, okay so like when I hit like 14 type, of start it and then like don't put pressure until like you're not moving exactly, but I also like I want you to use your body language.
Speaker 1:Don't stand and face him like. Have your back to him, let's go got it okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what we've been doing and instead it's just been like me constantly being like let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, and like tap, tap, tap, tap, like crazy, but or like let's go and then like one high level and then like he pops out of it, but then it's like me calling him off it's not him like paying attention of, like I've hit that and I try to do like practicing of, like changing directions when he's ahead of me and seeing if he'll tune in, type of thing, or stopping and seeing how far he'll go, um, and like practicing that, um, and sometimes he's really tuned in, but if the smell is that good, like it's forget mom yeah, yeah which is like typical, but I would just hold him to that and let your e-caller do the talking.
Speaker 1:So right now you're in the stage of training where we're trying to just get to the point where we can just use our e-caller right, and so anytime we're teaching a new language, that language is going to be the first thing to turn on, okay? So, for example, when we're teaching a sit, I don't label the sit before I've taught the behavior. First I'll, you know, guide the dog into a sit and then I'll label it, so then it becomes sit, no, body language, pause. Then I'll give you body language sit, because that's what I'm teaching. I'm teaching the the verbal same thing with leash pressure. Right, if I'm teaching a dog, leash pressure, leash pressure is going to go on. Come, moves with me, pay. So e-collar is the same way. So when we're teaching e-collar, I want e-collar to always be the first thing to go on, because that's the cue that we're teaching it, got it.
Speaker 2:And then is that, now are we doing it like low stim and then into high, when like he's not, like just really not tuning in um, I want you to get to the point where you know what level you need to be at, based on where he's at.
Speaker 1:okay, so if you know that he's got his nose in the ground and it's a good smell, you're probably gonna dial up to like a 16. You know, I don't want you to be like nagging him at that like eight or ten, and tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, and he's like, okay, yeah, I guess I'll come, like I might be like okay, it's gonna go off if you're not paying attention to me. Like there has to be some sort of like valuable consequence for not doing the thing that we want him to do, got it?
Speaker 2:And then so is it like. I guess the reaction that I like look for, like with him is just like that kind of like. I call it like a hop-to because, like, when he feels it like, he literally like, like yes ma'am yeah, like he literally like jumps out of spot, like into where he's supposed to be. So is it like that's what I'm looking for, I'm just, or is it just a quick like kind of head moves and then moves, or is it like the I'm going?
Speaker 1:I would like. Uh, I would like some hustle. I would like some hustle. Yeah, okay, because also, like you, are giving him a lot of freedom.
Speaker 2:All you ask is that he keeps up with you and right you know so then, with that, to make sure that, like because I want the freedom to be as like, fair as possible, is it like when he's sniffing, like when I give him free, it's not free? And then, like I'm constantly, constantly moving at like my fast, like new y York pace, I'm like I give you free and like I slow down so that you can enjoy free, right, okay, so I have to learn how to walk slower.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, just think like when you're not going anywhere, I'm just going to like follow the dogs, you know, and that's like typically, when I have the dogs like on a flexi, I'm just kind of like following them around the park and then, whenever we're ready to start walking again, I'm like, all right, let's go. So, like on a trail, let's say, I find like a patch of grass and I'm letting the dog I'm like break, they run around, go crazy. All right, let's go. They, my dogs, know that they can't get too far out ahead of me and they also can't get too far behind me. I don't do a lot of talking to them.
Speaker 1:Right so like they know, like Ooh, we got to pay attention to where she's at. Or like we're going to get hit hot with the e-collar. And they do because they want to avoid that e-collar stim, and so I've created this bubble around me where they'll run up ahead and then they look back and wait for me.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know so, and I've noticed that a bit, where it's like if we're walking that I'll kind of notice like the quick little, like she's still back there, like type of thing, but not like if he's far, he's not going to stop unless he felt like he hit the end. Then he is going to be like oh, I went too far.
Speaker 1:But if or he starts to feel it of like, feel like I'm losing leash, then he's like wait, I think I'm going too far. But otherwise he's just like is she still back there?
Speaker 2:so that's because your leash is your cue, so now I want your e-caller to be your cue. Okay, got it. You call her to go on first, got it, and he so with him. Because I know people like disagree on this. Like with reactive dogs, is it fine that I let him go the 15 feet ahead, as long as I know that I can like directionally change on him if like something's far ahead of him or like he's going to react to something. Because he's walking ahead sometimes and I'm like, yep, that's fun. Like let's have fun, enjoy it. Yeah, that's fine. That's what I thought, because I've had it where it's like you can't let a reactive dog walk ahead of you and I'm like he's doing fine, like he's different.
Speaker 1:It's different if they're like 10 feet out in front of you and you have no control on your dog, like you can see him, you know when he's like gonna do it.
Speaker 2:You know, got it and um, what was the other one? So the crate. So where we're at with that is there was still some whining in the crate. So he's had like a lot of freedom, especially now that they've been here where, like sometimes he's had to sleep in the bed or like I was sick and I'm like I can't do crate stuff right now, so like you'll sleep in the bed, um, but most of the time he sleeps in the crate and he honestly mostly makes that choice and I think it's just because he gets like uncomfortable being stuck in the room too long with me. He's like I don't like you that much, thank you. Yeah, he's like god forbid you leave this apartment, but like being in the same room with you, no, like absolutely not so, which is funny because he's laying here now, but, but throughout the night he's just like she's a lot. So he'll go in his crate and like totally fine, close it, have fun, go to sleep, but um, with him, he does have like some whining in the crate still. Um, which is I'm the one that's asking about whining in the crate on your Instagram stories. That was me. So anytime you get a whining in the crate, it's probably me, but um no, so yeah, with him. I kind of just waited him out like you're not going to come out until like you're done, like you know once you're not going to come out until like you're done, like you know, once you're done and like usually it's like an hour to two hours or something, and it's like okay, once you're chill, like you can come out and that's it what I've had.
Speaker 2:Interesting bark collar wise. I had him because the levels are different with the educator. One it's like one, two, three, four, five, six or something, or like goes up to nine or something. So he was on level one, which felt like a 12 to me, and that was fine, like it did start correcting him. But then he started to have moments where he was like blowing through it a little bit, like if he was that worked up he was gonna blow through it. So then I did go up to a level two and that seemed to work a bit, but it is more of like.
Speaker 2:It feels like like he's starting to get like annoyed with it, of like or it's bothering him enough. But my interesting thing of like. So if I take him out because by the time I take him out. Now he's like starting to decompress himself. And then but he wants to be like vocal when he comes out and that's fine, I don't mind.
Speaker 2:Like you came out of the crate, you're like, why did you leave me? God forbid, fine. But if I forget, or like I'm slow to take off the bark collar, then like I see that it like hurts him almost when he comes out, because now his levels completely change and it's like he's getting hit like let's say it's like 30 and he's at like a 10. So like now it's like a vast difference. Um, so I've had it where I've had to take it off fast, but then it is the same thing of like he's learning, like if I have it on, then like I've got to like bark different, or like that's the other thing of like he's learned to bark different, of like his bark is like yeah, yeah, it's not like it's not forceful, so it's not annoying the whole neighborhood, but it's enough that I'm like you're being smart, like you know what it can tell and what it can't tell.
Speaker 2:um, so he's kind of just become like a whiner in the crate when I'm gone and then sometimes whining when I'm home. Like when he first goes in he's like why can't I be with everybody else? And then he's like then he'll chill out eventually. So with that is it just like waiting it out, and then like with the like separation anxiety Is it? Do I practice it more? Like what does it to? Like? Because he's not barking now as much, but he's still just like crying and whining and not calming down in the crate it's up to you and what battles you want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. So if it's not bothering you and you like the amount of freedom that you're giving him, then he's fine, like he's literally. He's totally fine. Um, I will tell you, you got to pop that the bark collar off before he comes out of the crate right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've started to do that, but I've had like a moment where I'm like, oh, he got out fast and then I'm like, oh, this is not good. Like I'm like, oh, this is gonna be bad, and I'm like trying to hold it and, like me, take the shock versus him, take it.
Speaker 1:I'm like getting it in my hand, like god, this sucks no, just practice your crate manners right and you have to pop that off. Thomas shepherd does the same thing like he. He basically has a bark collar on like 24, 7 or he's just like, like screaming in the crate all the time, and so when we let him out of the crate, if he still has the bark collar on, he's like and we're like and you see his body like like freaking out, and I'm like, oh my god, I like saw kobe's neck move and I wanted to die.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh my god, I'm the worst person in the world because I like forgot, just make sure that you pop it off before he comes out of the crate. Um, yeah, so if I have a dog that is regressing or like whining more than we go back to our structure, okay, it's up to you, you know, yeah, I personally like I don't care that much, so I would just keep my bark collar on to make sure that he's not escalating and only let you out when you're chill.
Speaker 2:So then is it like should I do it that like every single time he goes in the crate there's the bark collar, and then, like for life, he like wears a bark collar, or is it like when I'm leaving I don't want it to be like when I'm leaving you wear a bar collar, because then, like it's like a clear sign of like I'm leaving, like so is it like every time he goes in the crate he has a bar collar on type of thing? I would just in case. But then like, if I'm leaving, like maybe he's a level two when I'm leaving, but if I'm home and it's just like stuff's going on like level one, and then like he might just bark because somebody knocked on the door but he's not at a level two, type of thing yeah, got it.
Speaker 1:There's also um, you can put it on like a rise, so that it's like it starts at the lowest level and works its way up. You do have to be careful of that, because sometimes dogs will just like keep correcting themselves and you're like okay, please stop. You know, and you have to like try to get it off. He's the one, yeah, so like, be careful with that. But that's an option for you like, because it will always start at the low level and then if he continues to bark through it, then it will like automatically dial up. Um. Do you like the, the bark collar that you have?
Speaker 2:um I'm fine with it, like, it's been good, it's been keeping count and like. That's helped me gauge of like, because normally, normally he's like a six or something. Like I come back and he barked like six times or three times and I'm like, that's fine, like I don't care. You know like, and I know he whined or he cried and it's like, but he had moments where, like he took his time to build up, like he didn't do it until like an hour and a half after I left, or two hours left. So I'm fine with it. But then like, then it also like teaches me of like. Okay, today he barked like 96 times and maybe it's because I didn't actually put as tight as I thought I did, or maybe, like you know, maybe he's starting to learn to blow through it, or I left so fast and I didn't work him.
Speaker 1:So like it's kind of helped me to like gauge of like did I do enough work beforehand or like was I using it properly? Okay? Yeah, I've had a couple of people who have had issues with the bark counter on that like it had it hasn't been going off or like counting barks it was yeah, so people have had to like return them and get another one from e-collar tech.
Speaker 2:So I was curious if you know for him it's been working great and I think it also helped that I had so much experience with like their other like stuff that I was like I already know how to like turn this on and work this, and it was just like how do I get?
Speaker 2:the right fit. Um, I tried it with the bungee, because I used the bungee for the e-collar because I put the e-collar quite tight, um, because it has to be for him to, because otherwise then I'm like at a 40 for no reason. Um, just to get him to feel a little thing. So, but when I do the bungee for, like, the bar collar, that doesn't work and I think it's just. It's just a different type of collar, so like it needs more, but otherwise, like, yeah, it's been counting pretty good and it doesn't go off like just randomly, so that's been pretty good of like you know, I even tested it and I was like, if I'm like just talking loud or I'm laughing loud Cause I have one of those laughs it shouldn't go off on him, type of thing, and it's been good about that. So, yeah, otherwise it's been, it's been great, but it's just like me having to remember I have to take this off, type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would just pick your battles with whining in the crate. You know, like, if it, if it's really getting to you, then okay. You know he's telling you that we need to go back to more structure and more crate time, but, like I don't know, dogs are gonna make noises. You know, like I would rather him live his life and whine a little bit. It's just, it's just up to you and like, whatever you want to deal with, you know yeah, so should it be?
Speaker 2:now, like, the consistency I'm trying to do is like we go on a walk, you get worked, type of thing, like if you get worked enough, you go in there for like an hour, like a 30 minute to like an hour and a half type of thing, and then you come out like you're back with the world, or like after you eat, like whenever he eats and I usually keep him in like 30 minutes to an hour because I don't want him coming out and then be like, oh my god, the world. And then he like blows or something horrible happens, um, or he just starts being pushy because he ate, but um, but uh, unless he was like in the crate for like a while, then I'll like leave the door open and then put him in place and like that's your different of like you can be in the world, but like you can't be getting crazy. Uh, so is it just fair to do that of like after the walks, after you've been worked? Then you go in or like if you're like I've also done it like recently like if my parents leave, like which this is gonna happen tomorrow too, probably. Of like when my parents leave, like which this is going to happen tomorrow too, probably of like when my parents leave at any point. He gets like super crazy when anybody leaves this apartment.
Speaker 2:So if he's loose and he like cannot relax and he's just like pacing and pacing, then it's like, okay, go in your crate, lay down, you'll be fine, and like that's when I'll use that and then keep him in there like until they come back and then he can come out and like join the world and be excited that everybody's home.
Speaker 2:So that's the other, that's like, I think, the only other thing that I had. So when he like when people leave right, like he does get, like he sees people getting dressed, he starts jumping on you, barking at you, going crazy. He's like running around the apartment, he's pissed Right, and then when you come back, same deal. So the way I've done it is either like I leave with him beforehand, so then like I'm having to like get dressed, like faster than everybody else and get him out the door faster than everybody else, or like stick him in the crate and then like bar collar, I guess. But how do I deal with that of like yeah, like people are leaving and like working him, of like people can leave and like you don't have to like jump on everybody and freak out, and like you don't have to like make this big scene that.
Speaker 1:Teach him that you know. So instead of like just avoiding that conversation no, you cannot jump up on people. He's starting to be crazy. No, you know, if you want, I I wouldn't give him an alternative behavior. So, like, what you know you could do is like no, and then put him on place, but I don't. That's like just practicing place. That's not really teaching him what you don't want him to do. So I think that there's value in teaching him what you don't want him to do.
Speaker 1:Like okay, you can't lose your mind when people leave the apartment, like this is just a normal thing. So if you're gonna jump, no e-call or stim, you can hang out, you know, and like go into it slow, like don't be. Like day one. Like all right, like I'm going to correct you for everything, but like hey, I'm just going to correct you day one for, like, jumping up on people. So have your e-call already. When you're getting ready to, or people are getting ready to, leave, he starts going crazy. No, a little bit of a stim. Yep, for that I would do like uh, because he is working himself up, I would do a lower level hold for about two seconds because I don't want it to be so much that it's jacking him up even more, but I want it to be like a little nudge of like hey, stop it, got it yeah, and so in that case.
Speaker 2:So it's like he's barking let him bark, type of thing, but he's jumping and freaking out at people or like getting in their space, like charging people, and that's when I'm correcting it, type of thing pick what you want to address first.
Speaker 2:If the barking leads to jumping, then I would address the barking you know, okay, I feel like he jumps first and then when people push him off or people are like get away, then he's like and like. That's same thing of like I've tried it where I have corrected, but it was probably a little too high and then he like barked. And then I was like like and like now he's like barking at me, like stop doing that, like now you're just being annoying mom. So in that case, like I'm not correcting the barking, like this isn't a bark collar moment, this is like a just stop freaking out at people type of thing yeah, you're trying to teach him that you don't like that behavior okay love it, got it.
Speaker 2:So then tomorrow when they leave, instead of like well, tomorrow when they leave, is it like I can leave him in the crate, like if it might be super early? So if they leave super early, do I like leave him in the crane, just make sure he has a bark collar on type of thing, or is it like let him loose and then like correct that uh, it's up to you and what you want to do.
Speaker 1:Fair, like you want to work through it and take that as an opportunity, then yeah, have them out.
Speaker 2:But if you're like no, it's gonna be early and I don't really want to deal with it, then just have them in the crate with the barcaller, yeah, and then instead work it like when they come back and then that way like then it's like okay, people can also come into this house, because I feel like that also happens way more of like him freaking out because if I have friends and like they're leaving, he can be leashed and he's just like what's going on. But if it's like they're coming in now, like this is like the worst thing in the world. People are coming in my face.
Speaker 1:Does he like what? What does he do?
Speaker 2:so we've had him recently I've done it. Where that's the only time really that he's on a figure eight, honestly, is when people come in, um and or like when they're leaving, type of thing, like that's the only time I'll put him on a figure eight. And then usually it's we're working place right by the door. He sees them come in, he jumps off. No, he jumps off. No, like go back to place, work it once. You're like tuning in with me at least a little bit. Like not a lot, because I know this is a lot, but you're like go off and now you can go say hi, and if the person's okay with you jumping, then like you jump, if they're not, then like you don't type of thing like it's a video of that for me, yeah yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Then, like it will be, I think like tomorrow we'll have it. I'm just like we'll see, or like I can record him of like when people get ready. It's just like when people get ready, he's like how dare you? Like you you're taking me, um, and that's the only time we're like he won't respect thresholds either. Of like, if, like, I'm doing it, if, like, he now sees that I am taking him, then he's like I know I'm going in the car with all these people. He just assumes this is a car moment. And if it's like a mama's car moment, then it's like leash is on and he's just going out and I've got to be like no, and, and I'll just like wait at the door, like we're not leaving now, like you're just gonna, and just he kind of kind of hits the end of the leash constantly. I don't usually e collar most of the time just because I'm like I feel like there's no need of like, or like there is a need, but like, if like.
Speaker 1:I know it's about to happen, so I almost feel wrong correcting it. So then I feel like I just have to let him set him up. Like start using your e-collar to do the talking. Got it, because we are, we're relying a lot on leash and if you want that like off leash freedom, then like hey, when you go to run through the door, like e-collar stim goes on, I haven't given you your word yet. Yes, got it. And that's another like important safety thing yeah, that's the other thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you've had your high arousal and there's a squirrel running through the parking lot doesn't mean that you get to break that.
Speaker 2:You know there's still going to be a consequence for that, even if you're all jazzed up, yeah that's actually been an interesting one of like I was starting to let him on command like chase squirrels and whatnot.
Speaker 2:Um, but then, or like as much as he could, so every now and then, like there's a chipmunk and I'm like, yeah, go for it, why not? But, um, and it's just funny because, like they always evade him and he gets so sad I think it's the best thing ever. But, um, I have been in like shane's community and he had mentioned, like maybe don't do that too much, because maybe he's learning also of like that he can. Like that's where his reactivity sometimes can be. Um, and then, like that actually happened this morning of like I was letting him have a moment where, like I was like, oh my god, the squirrel's up there, and then like he's staring at the tree, and then that's when that chick came and like stopped and like stared at him and then he was like, well, I don't see that, but I do see you he's like I can't find it, but I can find you.
Speaker 2:And I was like, yeah, that was my fault, that was totally my fault, like I didn't see her coming, that was totally my fault. And I was like oops, yeah, but yeah, like he's in drive.
Speaker 1:He's in drive in that moment. So, like all of my dogs would do the same thing if they were like you know, if I'm playing tug with them and somebody walks up behind me, they're going to be like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa you know if he's mid reaction, like I rarely correct a reaction, like rarely like a color correct, because I'm like it's happening whatever.
Speaker 2:Like you know, we're in it, we're doing it. My only shame is I feel like most of the time I'm like dragging him away from something, like on the slip lead, and then I feel like I'm just like choking him out by accident and like that's not what I want to do either. So I guess, if he's the middle of a reaction, like what I've had some success with is like I'm gonna go and like walking hit the end of the 15. And then it was like you said, he's a bit insecure. So I do notice of like wait, where does she go? I'm feeling her leave me. And like that's when he does kind of like he's going to keep trying to turn around, but mostly he gives up. But sometimes I don't have 15 feet to like risk it, of like if he pulls this he's going to go, and then like now he's too close to somebody or something. So in that case, like how am I like am I scooping him up? Like what am I doing with the leash? I guess, to like pull him out of that reaction.
Speaker 1:You can let your e-caller do the talking in those moments. Okay, so like lower practice.
Speaker 1:Well, what state of mind is he in? It's got to be high, yeah, Cause. Well, what state of mind is he in? It's got to be high, yeah, because he's so far gone. We got to match where he's at. So we're practicing those like big directional changes and like coming back and following me, right, so that in those moments when I do start to leave you and you're having a reaction, e-collar stim is going to go on Because you're not paying attention to me, because you're in that drive state. You know, got it. Because you're not paying attention to me, because you're in that drive state, you know. So if he's super over aroused, our e-color is going to meet him there. Yeah, got it. And I would tap in those moments. I would just tap, tap, tap and then he's gonna be like whoa, come back, look to you. Good, come on, let's go.
Speaker 2:Got it. Yeah, cause it's more been of like, like my favorite one was. There was this, I think it's like a Dalmatian or something and she's blind and I was like oh no, and I like I saw her at one point. I was like we avoided her. Great, no reaction. I didn't see her at all the next time because they were behind a car and I was on the other side. We don't see each other.
Speaker 2:Then, like she could, obviously blind dogs are like so amazing. So like she looks to the side like she knows that he's there, like she can't see, but she knows. And then he looked up and I'm like please, don't like. This is like I feel worse when it's a dog like that. So he goes, and in that case he had the 15 because I knew that I had just enough space, that as long as that dog didn't have a long line, that we were going to be fine and it didn't. So he did react. But in that case I just kept walking and he did like he pulled more because he had gotten close enough where like she was now reacting to him, this poor blind dog, and like they're having this moment. But once he was feeling that I was walking away, he started to like give, so we've had a few of those.
Speaker 1:If he chooses to be forward in his reactivity, I for lack of a better term will light a dog up for that. Really Okay, because you're committing. You're committing to that, got it. It's not even like you're on a leash next to me and you're popping off. I'm not necessarily gonna like light a dog up for that, but like, if you're leaving me to be forward with another dog, that's a, that's a high like level e-collar stim for that and that's a no boom and you got it oh shit, you know, and probably think twice before he goes to be that forward again, goes forward like that.
Speaker 1:So if you're in shane's community, you've probably heard him talk about this before. He doesn't always correct the intention or redirect dogs with reactivity. He gives them the opportunity, but yeah. So if if we're on a 15 foot lead and he hits the end of that lead, yeah, we should have high level corrected him at 10 feet, yeah, you know. So, yeah, that's what I would do, because you're get, you've given him the opportunity to not react and he's like gone ahead and taken the whole 15 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, got it. So that is interesting of like. It's weird because, like he obviously has the insecurity of like once I'm gone he's like, oh, wait a minute, but then he is very forward. So then I don't like I have a hard time like noticing, like if it's like he just really wants to play and he's just't like I have a hard time like noticing, like if it's like he just really wants to play and he's just like this, like overreactive of like or like just like he's kind of crazy loud or if, like he really is like I will hurt you if I get to you, type of thing. Like I can't tell if it's aggressive or if it's just like a frustration, like I know he has moments where, like he'll look at me and like he's frustrated, like he's barking at me now and like I get it. But then I have moments where, like he's going, I'm like I can't read that yeah, um, I wouldn't overthink it too much.
Speaker 1:I would just like. I don't necessarily think that he's aggressive. I think if he like got to the dog it could result in a fight. If the other dog is willing to like, hey, get the F out of here. But you have to think for him like. That is so just like socially not acceptable in dog world to be like and like run up to another dog. You know so like. You have to be the one to be like Whoa, what the heck. You cannot do that Got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but let's say I'm walking a dog at heel and that dog pops off, am I going to light them up? No, but if you have been working a dog for so long on this and the dog knows the expectation of you know I walk in heel, I'm the expectation of you, know I walk in heel I'm gonna, you know, give them a little slack in the leash. Are you going to be forward with this? If you are going to be forward with it, no, high level e-collar stim and that's going to be probably a press and hold for you.
Speaker 1:I would guess 25 and up, okay, yeah so that's like a pretty, like hey, I don't want you to ever do that. Like for you to leave me to go bark at this poor blind dog is crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, because he has that like. We had it where, like, this person in the back would leave their dog and she, but sometimes she would open the door, just like, let her out, which you can't do in a complex, apparently, but like you can't. So like, and it's like a I don't know. I think she's like a lassie looking dog. I don't know what she is, but she's just very pity, is what I think. But she would come charging, he would start moving forward of like like no, and then she would kind of I don't know what I want to do get in his face, and then they would like he would pause, like kobe is the type of dog of like now you're in my face and then I actually don't know what I want to do with you.
Speaker 1:I feel like. I feel like that's what he would do, is like he would get there and then they would go nose to nose, tails up like uh yeah, and then he's gonna make the next move. So it's.
Speaker 2:I don't think that he's necessarily an aggressive dog, but I think like there could be a conflict there, depending on the dog yeah, the only time I've ever seen him where I felt like he went like at a dog's neck of like he was like that's a no, was he had a dog that he always like got excited up and I was like can we just like have them like close enough to each other? He's like this dog is so chill, because it was so chill. But what I didn't know is that this dog loved to jump on people and the dog jumped on me and then Kobe was like game over, bro, like we're done and like never forgave it and like that was like a full like. Then I saw the mouth and I was like oh no, I was like I messed up, you know, and that was the only time I ever saw him like go at like a dog where it was like it looked like it was gonna go bad, versus like other times.
Speaker 2:It's like if the dog got close enough, then he was like forget it. You know where he was like now I'm stuck and now I'm just gonna get loud when my mom starts coming back to me. You know, when my mom's here now I'm gonna get so mad at you, but otherwise he freezes. But with that dog it was like you jumped on her and like that was war. So that's the only time I've ever seen like aggression of any type from him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I just I wouldn't even let it get to that point Like, if you're willing to, you know, blow past me at 10 feet. I'm going to hit you at a pretty high level on the e-collar, just because I don't want you to ever do that Got it.
Speaker 2:And then my only thing with furniture that I always think of, so he has it with my dad of like, if my dad comes into the room and like, like, if my dad comes into the room and like shows, like I'm gonna get on her bed, then Kobe comes out of nowhere, like you know.
Speaker 2:He's like no, you're not, like you know, and he's not aggressive, but he's watching him, you know, and he's like leaning on me and I think it's because my dad and I are like rough house type of people and he got used to seeing that and thought this is a game that I don't know how to play, but it doesn't look good, like you know. And now I have to come in and I'm the corrector type of thing of like you don't do that. And then he does lean on me and like that's the only time, like he doesn't mind being in the room, but then, like, if my dad comes towards the bed, he's like no, like, no, not on here. So in that moment is that a like Kobe, get off moment type of thing of like you can't be here. If you're gonna do that, yeah for sure okay, got it, and it's more so.
Speaker 1:Uh, this is not your responsibility, okay got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's not like a correction, it's just a more like, no, like you're not part of this game, like you can go. Yeah, exactly got it. Yeah, because that's the only time of like he can see. Like the dogs come on the bed and he's like whatever, but like if my dad comes and was like go, be like, then he's like no, he's like not to her, yeah, so definitely get him off the bed in those moments and maybe even put him in the crate if he's still like eyeing your dad, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah if he's giving him like a weird look like he's got it, okay, got it yeah, and so you're just communicating like, hey, not your problem, not your job to worry about this, like I got it got it, got it, got it, and I think that was like all of my things and which was a lot, and I'm sorry, but by now you know I'm like a helicopter mom.
Speaker 1:I try to get some videos of like leaving and people coming in so I can see what that looks like, but it actually looks pretty controlling. I think that's kind of like your overarching thing with him. He's a very controlling dog.
Speaker 2:Yes, so he wants to control. It was like controlling, but you like, I don't know what just happened. But this is how I'm going to like, show that I'm upset or confused.
Speaker 1:Exactly Like he wants to control people coming in, he wants to control people leaving. It can be a slippery slope, so you got to be firm with him on the little stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay Got it. A slippery slope, so you got to be firm with him on the little stuff. Okay, got it. Yeah, so in that case it's like you're not jumping on people at all when they come in or out, like it's just a no type of thing, okay got it.
Speaker 1:We had a dog that we were working with that was like that and, um, the owner just let the dog, you know, push in little moments and eventually the dog was not letting people leave, like it would literally like stand at the door and like growl at people when people tried to leave.
Speaker 2:So I mean, I'm more of like I come in and then I'm having to go and like the only time he'll listen is when I'm like no, like so loud that he's like oh, whoops, like then, like once I'm like now I'm at like a 40, then he's like oh god, like sorry yeah, and it's a little bit different with you, right, like, as long as I feel like with you it's probably just like more so over arousal, yeah, but with other people I would try to like control that.
Speaker 1:Right Got it yeah, so I don't care if he jumps up on you. I don't care if he, like you know, it was like, oh, like big feelings when you come home. I don't care about those things. But what I do care about is if he's trying, to like, control people at the door Got it.
Speaker 2:So then, like, in those moments it's not usually he's not on a leash, so then I'm like trying to like corral him up like spatial pressure and then like no, like enough, and like games over type of thing. So in those moments, instead, like the next time we practice it should it be of just like? I'll just like kind of record, like what it looks like, and then just like, if I have to like you see color, then that's what I'm using it like jumping, but show his full reaction, like let him yeah, yeah, yeah, got it, yeah, because he's gonna, he has fun, he is. And then for my parents, in that moment of like, if he's coming at them I'm correcting and he's still kind of like, I don't know, confused, do they like? I know different people like react differently. Is it like a push away? Is it like a turn away? I turn sometimes I know people say it's like pray, so like, do you like? What do they do if he's getting too close?
Speaker 1:I wouldn't really have them do anything, I would have you just like manage him got it just like you're correcting him and he's like I would just like move him away, like grab his collar, grab him, move him away got it.
Speaker 2:So is it okay if he drags like a leash or something too?
Speaker 1:I'm just like we're gonna redirect over here yeah, so a leash is directional guidance anytime we're doing a new situation or need extra directional guidance have your leash on, have it on, got it and then have the other dog not correct him in those moments either.
Speaker 2:Yes, she's one of those. She used to get scared that he would jump, like when he would come and he like started. He was just like a playful dog and would jump on me. She would jump, fly off of the couch. We call her underdog.
Speaker 1:She would fly off of the couch and then and he's like that's kind of valuable too, right, because we have another dog in the situation who's like hey, why are we letting this happen? I'll go correct him.
Speaker 2:So, instead of like having another dog correct him, have you do it and you do it, got it, yeah, and then maybe make her a little more balanced again with her hey, not your job, I got it, not your job got it love it. And yeah, those are all my things. I'm sorry I always take so much of your time.
Speaker 1:You're good, you're good no, it's good to hear an update from you. Um, start letting your e-caller do the talking. You have been in the training phase for so long with him. He knows what he needs to be doing. Yeah, you'll get more comfortable with feeling out which level you need, based on, like, where he's at, but just think like you're matching his state of mind. So, instead of just thinking like, oh, low level or high level, it's, it's a great where? Where are we at? Based on, like your state of mind?
Speaker 2:yeah and adjust as needed type of thing, exactly, exactly. Yeah, I think it's more of that where, like when we leave, I'm like I don't feel like he was really excited when we just left. So now I'm going to keep him at like a 12 because I'm like that will be my correction. But if he's like we left and he's like, oh my god, no, I'm like a 19 type of thing of like he left me excited, like yeah got it, you'll get more comfy with it love it and don't think that you like.
Speaker 1:If you're accidentally hit him at too high of a level, don't freak out, he's literally gonna be fine.
Speaker 2:Okay, he recovers yeah, that's the same thing of like the slip lead, like where he would like, like he would kind of, and I'm like you're fine, like your throat is so tough compared to like ours, like you're fine, like where I know he's like being dramatic, of like you just freaked yourself out for a second, like you didn't know what was happening, but you're fine, yeah, yeah, love it, thank you. Videos absolutely. I always feel bad when I have to, that I'm like I feel like she must be. Like I always hear from this check. No, not at all, not at all. You're the best. Thank you, so so much, and I'm glad that everybody is doing okay.
Speaker 1:Thank you. We'll talk soon. Okay, absolutely Alrighty. Thank you Bye. Thank you guys, so much for joining me this week. If you guys like the podcast and want more people to listen to it, leave a review. It would mean the absolute world to me, and I've opened up virtual sessions. So if you want to get on my virtual session calendar, you can visit the website at theeverydaytrainercom and that will be linked in the show notes. See you all next week.