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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Navigating 25 Years of Dog Training Evolution ft. Stephanie O'Brien
What does 25 years of dog training experience teach you? Stephanie O'Brien, owner of Dog Genius Canine Education, takes us on a fascinating journey through her evolution as a trainer—from growing up raising guide dogs to becoming an expert in protection sports.
Stephanie's story offers a rare glimpse into how dog training has transformed over decades. Before YouTube tutorials and Instagram influencers existed, trainers learned through direct mentorship, VHS tapes shipped from Europe, and traveling to competitions. Her vivid recollections of discovering Belgian Ring sport for the first time and the thrill of taking bites from champion protection dogs showcase a passion that's carried her through an extraordinary career.
The conversation explores pivotal moments that shaped her approach: apprenticeships with contrasting mentors, importing her first "real" Malinois from Belgium, and eventually moving to California where she built a thriving business training dogs for celebrities and television appearances. Through these experiences, Stephanie developed a balanced training philosophy that prioritizes understanding each dog as an individual.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Stephanie's honesty about the challenges trainers face—from navigating polarized training philosophies to managing self-doubt even decades into a successful career. Her perspective reminds us that great training isn't about rigid methodologies but rather building relationships and adapting to the dog in front of you.
Whether you're a seasoned professional or simply love dogs, this conversation offers wisdom that only comes from decades of hands-on experience with thousands of dogs across multiple training disciplines. Listen in as Stephanie shares why, even after all these years, every dog still teaches her something new.
You can find Stephanie at her website here
Visit our website theeverydaytrainer.com
that's very tasty. It's one of my favorite ones it's like a vacation yeah. I don't know what that's like vacation in like seven years, yeah hello, hello and welcome back to the everyday trainer podcast.
Speaker 2:My name is meg and I am a dog trainer. On today's episode, I am joined by stephanie o'brien. She is the owner of dog genius canine education. She has been a dog trainer for over 20 years, so she is going to share all of the insights that she's learned over those years, kind of the trends in dog training and how it's all changed. So grab yourself a tasty drink and meet us back here. Stephanie, I'm here, welcome. Thanks for having me in your house, thanks for having me on your podcast. Of course, I'm very excited to chat with you.
Speaker 1:I feel like you know all of the dog training secrets you know what, after all this, all this time, I'm still left scratching my head so many times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so give us a little intro. Who are you?
Speaker 1:What do you do? Well, my name is Stephanie O'Brien and I run Dog Genius Canine Education here in Southern California and it's primarily a pet training business. So I help a lot of pet owners with their issues with their dogs. And then sometimes people just send me dogs they want to make better. They're good dogs and they just want to make them better. I also breed, raise, train and compete Belgian Malinois. It's been a love of mine for the majority of my life and, um, that's my hobby. So my dog training hobby is is also more dogs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is more dogs.
Speaker 1:So I'm a dog trainer and do dog training for my hobby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how did you get into dog training?
Speaker 1:Uh well, dog training kind of happened, uh, I think you know organically in my life, um, but it was also introduced at an early age to me. So when I was young and I was a kid, my family we raised guide dogs for guiding eyes for the blind on Long Island.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did and, um, I remember it, no way, yeah, we did and I remember it. I remember it really really well and we always had two dogs at any given time. We always had two dogs, not three, not one.
Speaker 2:So you like grew up in a household that was like.
Speaker 1:Savvy about dog training, yes, in fact, I think as time went on and as I became a dog trainer and I started going into clients' houses and kind of seeing how they lived with their dogs, it was kind of a shock for me. Yeah, you know, another thing was when I was a teenager, going over to friends' houses and seeing how misbehaved a lot of their dogs were and the things that were happening, I was like my dog's at home Don't do those things. You know, my mom would never allow that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that were happening.
Speaker 1:I was like my dog's at home Don't do those things. You know, my mom would never allow that. And it sparked a lot of interest for me because I knew that people could have a much better life with their dogs and their dogs could have much better lives. And I just didn't know how to do that at that time. But I used to watch my mom.
Speaker 1:Back then dog training was very different. We didn't have you know you're talking about in the 80s. You know we didn't use clickers and things like that. We had choke chains and leashes and it was a lot of kind of jerking the dogs around and that was very normal back then. It was not frowned upon back then. It was. It was not frowned upon back then. But um, I used to watch my mom school school these, these young dogs. They were usually a golden retriever, lab mixes for guiding eyes for the blind, and we would raise them the first year and teach them housebreaking and just some basic obedience and we would socialize them. So I would help my mom with all those things and I thought it was the coolest thing in the world.
Speaker 2:It kind of is. Yeah, that's like a very cool thing to grow up with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I didn't realize its significance in my life at that time. Um, but I was also very obsessed with horses. Um, I would say at that time it trumped dogs and dogs were close second. But I was obsessed with all animals but I particularly loved horses and dogs and I started riding horses from a very early age and that also helped shaped me as a dog trainer.
Speaker 2:I was going to say all of the best dog trainers that I've met are like horse girlies Always, always, and, and I love clients that uh, ride horses or have horses, because they understand so well the little nuances involved in training.
Speaker 1:So I, I, I, from a young age I mean it was instilled in me, uh, to provide structure for dogs, for horses, and there was a lot of and I don't necessarily always mean physically, but there was a lot of pressure and release in horse training and there still is right Horses learn from that spatial pressure, physical pressure, things like that. So a lot of that applies to dog training too, right, so I didn't know I was learning all that stuff and setting my brain up for that, for a future profession. I didn't want to be a dog trainer. I didn't think that that was a job. When I was a kid, you know, I wanted to be a veterinarian or I wanted to be a horse trainer. At one point I thought I was going to be a world famous horse trainer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how old were you when you got into horses? Um?
Speaker 1:I started taking lessons at four. Oh my gosh, yeah, very young, your whole life, yeah.
Speaker 2:Very young.
Speaker 1:Okay and um, I, I was pretty obsessed with them. Uh, in the meantime, though, when I was a teenager, I did have um a couple you know dogs of my own, and then, like you know, just dogs we had in the family, and we always had a german shepherd and a golden retriever as, like your personal dogs plus your family also was like raising service dogs. Well, if we raised a guide dog. We. That was our second dog for that time being so we would usually raise a guide dog up um.
Speaker 1:Occasionally we would have a third dog, which was, you know, a family member's dog that you know they didn't want anymore or something like that.
Speaker 1:I do remember a couple of those. And then you know the guide dogs, but, um, yeah, usually it was a German shepherd and a golden retriever. So, um, when I was a teenager, in addition to riding, I begged and pleaded with my mother to let me get my own dog, because I didn't want to share my dog with the rest of the family, because I wanted, I wanted to do training, and times were a lot different back then. There was no internet, there was no you know, websites or YouTube and all these places where you can learn how to train dogs. We relied on books and then whatever local dog trainers there were. We didn't really have access to international trainers, outside of maybe specialty books that were written, which there weren't many, yeah, so it was a very different time.
Speaker 1:And we I did end up getting a Doberman, and there's a pretty crazy story as to why I wanted a Doberman and I didn't get the Doberman that I wanted. But I, you know, did everything I could with him. You know, I did the best I could with him. He was a nervous dog, but he was a beautiful dog and I got into some junior handling, akc showing and junior handling with him, and then I exhausted every local obedience course you could possibly take with him and I think maybe I was 14 years old and again, I was still riding horses at this time too.
Speaker 1:So, um, my mom God bless her would take me, you know, to some of these shows and deal with the craziness Cause. I think anybody who's been to an AKC confirmation show um crazy dog people, it's crazy dog people, yeah, it's crazy dog people. And um, I got a hard lesson in politics early on, in dog politics early on, as far as the confirmation ring um, where you know where you're showing your dog Right, the confirmation ring, um, where you know where you're showing your dog Right. And I did okay as a junior handler. But um, I did try to show my dog myself in the actual Doberman classes and, um, I didn't get called to the ring when I should have gotten called to the ring and it was kind of on purpose thing?
Speaker 1:uh, because there was somebody locally who bred Dobermans that always won and even though my dog was a nervous dog, he was very well trained and he was beautiful and he had really nice confirmation and he won his initial class. So he was. We were supposed to get a call back into the ring and I was right by. And you're not supposed to show your own dog.
Speaker 1:You can, but you should have a professional if you if you want them, so they're like this young girl yeah this young girl and I guess this I I'll never really know what happened, but what I suspect happened is this other breeder didn't want my dog to do well and they all know each other and was like oh, no, I called you.
Speaker 1:You didn't hear your number and I'm like a little 14 year old. My mom was pissed. Yeah, my mom was pissed. She's like we're never doing this again, yeah, so I kind of you know that was that and I did try some obedience with this dog but and we did okay, we did, like an AKC novice obedience show right, little A little competition and, um, I remember a little bit from it, but I remember everything going kind of well until we got to the long down and in the long down, um, you have to put your dog in a down and there's other dogs next to them in the down. And he did that and he did it Okay. And then we had to leave and my dog was not okay with that. He got up, he came running and searching for me and it was you know, I'm a 14 year old kid who I thought I worked my butt off for this.
Speaker 1:You know, like I was so embarrassed in the moment and I was like I don't ever want to do this again.
Speaker 1:You know it was just a bad day for me, right, but it was an important early. Just a bad day for me, right, but it was an important early, important early lesson you know in in dog training, in dogs and animals, you know like they're they're not always going to behave as we want them to and you know they're going to make mistakes. We're going to make mistakes, it's going to happen. So, um, I think when you're young like that, you're kind of in a rush to be relevant, right and say that you did things, and you know it hurts your ego when things like that happen, your little fragile, little teenage ego, you know. So, yeah, I was like mom, I need a new dog and she's like absolutely not, absolutely not. What's wrong with him? I was like he's scared of everything, yeah, so, um, that was kind of an introduction into more advanced dog training for me.
Speaker 1:But I also didn't understand outside of police canines. I didn't know as a teenager that there were actual protection dog competitions and I didn't know this until I was maybe 17 or 18, at least, we were looking for another German Shepherd, because our German Shepherd, our standard German shepherd that we had to have you know, passed. And um, my mom's like, okay, we can get a new dog now. And I'm like, okay, cool, you know, this is the kind of she's like no German shepherd, only German shepherd. And I'm like, okay, so I found this German shepherd breeder and, um, he bred West German show line German shepherds. But if anybody knows anything about those dogs, they're not working line German shepherds, those are like the fluffy ones.
Speaker 1:right yeah, they're the red and black ones the Mahogany and black pretty ones that everybody talks about and likes, and I get them all the time from pet clients and they're good dogs. They're good dogs, but they're not like hardcore working dogs like you. And I understand now, right. So, um, I found this breeder and back then, for those that don't understand or don't know, we looked in the newspaper to find breeders and that was a normal thing. Again, this was not frowned upon back then. Um, for sure, they were backyard breeders, but we only were able to really find breeders by looking in the paper locally, because there there wasn't a lot of information on yeah, like, how else are you shipping dogs?
Speaker 2:yeah, how are you supposed to find a dog?
Speaker 1:right. So you did that or you bought what was it? There was a magazine, dog fancy it's called dog fancy. I used to have them. I loved that magazine and in the back they had breeder advertisements, but they were all show breeders. So if you wanted a show dog, you would, you know, look up breeders, contact them and hope they were either close enough or I don't think we'd ever had a dog shipped. So you know, it was not something we were willing to do or my family was going to do, and it wasn't. It wasn't a normal thing a family did. You found a breeder that was close to you right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, um, I found a German Shepherd breeder and I went there and, long story short, we ended up getting a puppy from them Great dog. Um I, I love this puppy he was. He had a lot of health issues later, but him himself he was a great dog and he taught me a lot, a lot, because he was a slower maturing dog and he didn't show everything right away. He had some ball drive. But as far as bite work, anything like that protection work was he like a show line. He was a West German show line, yeah.
Speaker 1:So like German show line and um beautiful dog, and when I picked him up from the breeder as a puppy, he's like showing me this big book, and what it was was kind of like a stud book, Right. And again, we we didn't have everything on the internet, we couldn't just pull this stuff up. So the breeders would buy these stud books every year for like a couple hundred dollars and they would have all the pictures of all the German shepherds that went to the the um, what did they call it?
Speaker 1:A breed survey breed survey, they would go to a breed survey in Germany. And all these dogs, right? So he's showing me all these dogs and I'm like, hey, what are these letters behind the dog's name? Like they have like this S, c, h, three, like what he goes. You don't know what that is. And I'm like no, that's what I'm asking, you know, and I think I was maybe 18 at the time, right? And he's like so they do these competitions where they do some obedience and then they do some tracking, which is where they use their nose to track, like footprints, and then they do protection work.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, hold on, did you said protection work like biting? And he's like yeah, and I'm like you said protection work like biting. And he's like yeah. And I'm like no way, no way. Like all my dreams that I didn't even know about came true in those five minutes right there. And I was like this is the best day of my life. I mean, there's something out there where you can do protection in a competition. And he's like yeah, he goes, do you want to see? And I'm like in a competition. And he's like, yeah, he goes, do you want to see? And I'm like hell, yeah, I'm like are you kidding me right now? And he's like, yeah, he goes. Uh, you, you can, you can watch your puppy's mother do some, some bite work. And I'm like, oh my God, oh my God, you know I'm looking at my mom and she's like, oh, here we go, here we go go. I've lost my daughter now, you know again. And, um, he pulls out my puppy's mother, who was fantastic dog, you know even my standards to this day German Shepherd, wise, right, especially German show line dog. She was a great dog.
Speaker 1:And he whips out a sleeve, tells one of the other guys, put the sleeve on and sends her. And she hits the sleeve and she's, she's biting it. And you know they're smacking her with the padded stick. And I was in awe. I had no words. I could not. I could not muster any words out. I was just struck. I was like this is the most incredible thing I've ever seen in my life. And then I heard the most incredible words ever were do you want to put on the sleeve? And I'm like, oh, I can put it on, I could take a bite. And he goes, yeah, you could take a bite. Is it safe? It's safe, he goes, yeah. And I'm like, wow, and my mom's like oh, I don't know, I'm like shut up, mom, shut up.
Speaker 2:Let me have this.
Speaker 1:Shut up, let me have my moment. Yeah, so I put on the sleeve and the rest is history.
Speaker 2:Your pupils dilate and you're like yeah, I found my drug, I found my drug for sure.
Speaker 1:And and um, that's it. That changed the course of everything for me. Um, I still rode horses, still love horses, Um, but I did have an accident a severe accident, not on a horse. A year later, um, I and I had to sell my horse and I couldn't ride for for years. I was unable to due to my injury. So I had to give up horse riding anyway and that really sent me into dog training hardcore, um, when I was I I mean, I technically got into an apprenticeship when I was 18 for dog training.
Speaker 1:I was going to college also, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do in college and it was just a very conflicting time in my life because I was involved in this activity that I really really liked, really loved learning about more than I could ever imagine, right, and I wasn't even, I wasn't even tiptoeing on on on the tip of the iceberg at that point I was, I was so in love with it, right. And then there's college and I'm like college is so boring, I don't even know that I'm learning anything here right now, like, what am I even? What am I doing? And my family, we I come from a family, you go to college. It's not optional, you have to go to college, you have to graduate high school, you have to go to college. You know that's, that's a minimum. And you have to have a real job.
Speaker 1:And at that time you know dog training especially you know by my parents and I get it, it was understandable was not a real job, that was not a profession. Right, it was not a real job. And they were a little upset because my career choice. At that point I was like I want to drop out of college and learn dogs full time. And they were like, what are you doing? No, you're supposed to be a veterinarian. But then I was like, yeah, but I wanted to be a horse trainer anyways. I think a dog trainer makes a lot more than most horse trainers. It's probably a lot better, you know. And so, um, that's kind of a very long story, but the short of it is that's what ended up happening and I ended up the first trainer I apprenticed for was strictly a pet trainer and didn't have much working dog experience.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't like it.
Speaker 1:I didn't like it. It's not as fun. Not only that, there were things that were happening dog training wise that I was uncomfortable with as a person, as a human, as a trainer, and it wasn't the relationship that I wanted with dogs and we could kind of leave it at that. But, um, I moved on to um, finding so through the breeder of my German shepherd puppy, finding so through the breeder of my German Shepherd puppy. I ended up going to this club now, albeit a rinky-dink club, you know, in somewhere, somewhere in, you know, outside of New York City, and I met a couple of people through there and I met a couple of working dog trainers. It's also where I saw my first Malinois ever. I had no clue what a Malinois was. I had no clue they existed. I didn't know they were a breed Um, and the first one I saw I did not like it all Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was, it was um. I felt bad for the dog. The owner was very hard on him, very hard on him, and he was he was not the best looking Malinois either, you know, he had floppy ears and he was kind of scrawny looking and I don't know anything about him or where he came from, but um, it wasn't a good selling demo for a Malinois. For me, I was like no German shepherds are where it's at.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And um, I, I uh met these working dog trainers and they did Schutzen. At the time it was Schutzen and, and Schutzen basically is a protection sport that you can compete in, you know. So they have tracking, they have obedience and they have protection work, and that was super exciting for me. Super exciting for me. I had no idea any other protection sport existed at this point either.
Speaker 2:So is that the time that you were getting into sports? Yes, okay, so you went into pets first.
Speaker 1:Yes, but it was brief. It was like six months. I want to say six months and you were like no, this isn't it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and and, like I, I liked going to people's homes and and I didn't do much hands-on, I was, I was basically shadowing another trainer, but I just didn't like the way they were doing things. I just felt I didn't understand it at the time or why I didn't like it at the time, but it was a big disconnect and a big lack of understanding of of um, dog behavior and relationship with dogs and things like that.
Speaker 2:So I kind of had like a similar experience, like when I was first getting into dog training. I was like I don't really know, but I know it's not this. Yes.
Speaker 1:You know, it was that feeling Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like it's, this is not it, Yep, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like no, there has to be more to it than this. So I, you know the idea of making some money cause I don't come from money, you know, and I've always worked but I, you know, was tempted because you know, there was money if I stayed. But I wanted to learn more about dogs. I wanted to learn better dog training and more involved dog training, more relationship-based dog training. I'm like it's not this simple, it can't be this simple. Yeah, so getting into the working dogs was the logical next step, right plus, that's what I wanted anyway, you know. So, um, that happened, um, and then, um, I had an accident and got pretty injured and I kind of had to stop everything riding and training and everything for a time period. But I got back into it and I ended up. I'm just trying to remember.
Speaker 2:So long ago. I'm so old now.
Speaker 1:There was a like a working dog training place not too far from where I lived and I ended up going out there because the German shepherd puppy I had, he grew up and he was a really good dog but he had a lot of health issues that limited how much I could work them.
Speaker 1:And you know, my mom did kind of feel bad and and I talked her into letting me get another dog Right and I went to this place because I had found out about them through the other working dog people and it was much closer to me than having to go to, like, new York city. I lived an hour from New York city, you know, so this place was 15 minutes and I never even knew it existed. So it was a boarding and training kennel with a trainer and they. They held seminars and events and things every once in a while and again, we're talking quite a while ago. So the only way that you were going to find out about these things was word of mouth. They weren't posted on, you know, the internet and and you know, there was no social media.
Speaker 1:Your social media was getting out and talking to people. So if you weren't in that loop, you weren't going to find out about it, and that was that. So I started going there and I was asking them if they had any German shepherd breeders that they recommended to get another German shepherd puppy. And the lady that worked there, um, they bred and trained Malinois and she was like why do you want a German shepherd puppy? And I was like, cause, they're good, they're the best. You know German shepherds are the best. Like why would you even ask me that?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And she's like have you ever had a Malinois? I was like no. I was told they're crazy, they're nuts, I can't have those, those are only for, like police and and you know, crazy people Right? Um, maybe she wasn't wrong, but I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I was like you know they're there they can't live in the house.
Speaker 1:And she's like, no, no, no, they're fine, they're a lot like German shepherds, they're just better. And I'm like, how can this be? And I checked out a couple of German shepherd litters locally and there was. I knew a little bit at this point, um, as to not completely get a terrible dog, but you know, I just wasn't, I wasn't finding a good puppy. And you know, I finally broke down and I I went back to her and she's like just just look at the Malinois puppies. We have a couple. We have like two females and a male.
Speaker 1:And my mom didn't want me to get a male because we still had Zeke, our German shepherd. I didn't name him, I did not name him. His name was Zeke, I did not name him. I'm not responsible for that name, um. So I had to get a female.
Speaker 1:So there were two females and she brought them both out and one of them was like I don't know, it was scared of everything. It was scared of everything. It wouldn't even walk on the floors. And I was like, okay, well, I don't want that one. And then the other one seemed kind of cool. She was, she was a little timid, but I whipped out a ball and she was like, ooh, what's that, you know? And I, I chucked the ball in the, the, the office, you know. And I, I chucked the ball in the, the, the office, you know, retail front area. And she was chasing it and she liked the ball and I'm like I got talked into this puppy, right, and so I come home with this Malinois puppy, and I mean halfway home I was like this is the biggest mistake I ever made. This is such a mistake it threw up all over.
Speaker 1:I had her in a crate in the back of my um. I think I had like a, a pathfinder. I had a pathfinder then and you know I knew enough now to have a dog in the crate in the car right, not loose in the car, and she threw up all over the place, she peed and pooped in the crate and the 15 minute ride home and I was like, oh, this is not good, you know. And I got her to my house and she was scared of my mom.
Speaker 1:She was yeah my mom's like what did you bring home? This is not. This is not a dog like we normally have you know and I'm like.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I felt so much shame in that moment, you know, I felt so much shame in that moment, you know. And, um, you know, I, I just uh, slowly, was like I couldn't. How did I end up with another dog that's scared of everything? You know, this is exactly what I didn't want and again, you know it's, it's it's just complete lack of experience and somebody convincing me that, you know, this was a great puppy for me, right when it in fact was not. And I remember, you know, every time I would try to open the crate to take her out, she'd pee in the crate.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1:She was. She was so scared and so timid and but she did like a ball. She would light up a little bit for a ball. She had no food drive. No food drive, she could care less. You know, she ate enough to live. And I was like this is just the worst dog. But I don't know, maybe I'm missing something. And when I got her they had told me that there was a workshop that they were going to. So this is back in 2000, the beginning of like 2002, I want to say the end of 2001, something like that and there was this workshop at their place that they were holding next week and I was like, okay, cool, what's, what's it on? And they're like it's, it's a ring sport, I'm like what? And they're like ring sport. And I'm like like I don't know what ring sport is you know there's more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like what?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was sport, a ring sport. And uh, she's like, yeah, she's like, well, you do schutzen, you like schutzen. She goes, it's like schutzen, but way better. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, I'm not gonna say no to a good time, you know. So I'm not going to say no to a good time, you know. So I'm like, okay, cool, I'll be there, you know, tell me when and I'll be there. And I'm like ring sport I've never even heard of anything. I couldn't find anything and I think at that point, you know, we just had like internet a little bit, but there was nothing anywhere mentioned in books, anywhere on ring sport. Never heard of it, never seen it. So next week comes and I'm super excited, so excited, and I go there and, um, there's a lot of people there, there's quite a few people there and I, uh, it was an absolute pivotal day in my life as far as dog training and and what I was exposed to.
Speaker 1:I saw ring sport for the first time and I was like man, this lady wasn't lying, this is the coolest stuff I've ever seen in my entire life. I watched dogs scale a Palisade wall you like a full Palisade wall. That's 2.3 meters, that's high. And I was like I didn't even know dogs could do this. And I watched an American bulldog not an American bully, an American bulldog, cause they were very popular back then, um, especially on the East coast and I watched an American bulldog do a Palisade wall no way, yeah. And then after that cause that wasn't enough, you know, I'd seen Malinois, I'd seen German shepherds, right, the American bulldog. And then after that, this dude parades out an old English bulldog, an oldie, an old English bulldog. So if for for those that don't know what an oldie is, an old English bulldog, it's not an English bulldog. They're not short and squat like English bulldogs, they're a more athletic version of a bulldog. So imagine, like a pit bull body with a bulldog face, and they're smaller than American bulldogs. And I watched one of these do the Palisade wall. It was the first time I've ever seen one of these dogs in my life. And then I'm of these do the Palisade wall. It was the first time I've ever seen one of these dogs in my life. And then I'm watching it do a Palisade wall at a place where they're doing ring sport, a thing I've never even seen or heard of.
Speaker 1:I was overstimulated is an understatement, right? So at this workshop. You had demonstrations of Belgian ring. So there were folks that came over from Belgium, from the NVBK organization, to represent Belgian ring and show Belgian ring at this seminar, and you had people from French ring sport at this seminar. And then you had which was very new back then trainers showing Mondio ring. Mondio ring was super new. There were no competitions here at that point. But I met all in one day Francis Metcalf, michael Ellis, waleed Maloof, frances metcalf, michael ellis, waleed maloof. Um, these you know famous people, famous trainers from over in belgium. I met them all at the same day. I met all these well-known dogs too. So, um, it was just a massive day for me, a massive day. And then I pull out my dinky little malinois and I'm like, hey guys, yeah, they're like, who are you? What do you? What little Malinois.
Speaker 2:And I'm like hey guys, they're like who are you?
Speaker 1:What are you here for? And I'm like I don't know, I do IGP.
Speaker 2:I do Schutzen. I'm like well, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I was like I want to do Schutzen, but I was told about this and this looks way cooler, like I kind of want to do this now and, um, luckily for me, everybody there was really cool. And it's crazy because I'm still friends to this day, all these years later. I'm still friends with all of them and, like I don't know, sometimes like it's like, oh, it brings a tear to my eye.
Speaker 1:You know like yeah, I didn't know, like that day literally changed your life. It changed my life and, and you know, I I could pretty much call up any of them right now and, and you know, provided a time change, you know but they'll pick up the phone, like I'm like that's the coolest thing, the coolest feeling. You know that, that you've known these people for so long and they've made such an impression so early on, cause I think I was 19 years old at the time. You know I was, I was very young and um, they're like what do you want to do? Like you have a dog and I'm like I have a Malinois.
Speaker 2:And I was kind of like yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So, um, they're like, oh, let's, let's see. And I'm like, I was like she's not very good, and they're like it's okay, let's see. And, and you know cause? I just watched them parade out these dogs and oh, this is another really important thing that happened for me at this, uh, workshop.
Speaker 1:I didn't like e-callers, so my initial experience with e-callers before this day was not good and I didn't like how I saw them used. So, um, I had seen a couple trainers you know I say that loosely trainers use e-callers. It was in a very punitive and and unfair way. Yeah, and I, I didn't like it and I swore, I swore I would never put one of those horrid things on my dog, and no-transcript. And I went into the workshop not even knowing what I was walking into. But you know, I always had an open mind as far as like, show me different, you know.
Speaker 1:So one example of many is I watched one of the trainers there walk in with one of his dogs, a Malinois, and this dog was so happy. It was happy and it was doing incredible obedience. I'd never seen obedience like this in my life, you know, and I was like this is insane, like I can't even process it as it's happening because it's blowing me away that much. And the dog's attitude was amazing and I saw one of those godforsaken evil e-collars around its neck and I was like, oh, how is this possible? How is this dog so happy? And I'm like, okay, I'm just going to sit and watch and observe and and hopefully I'll get some answers here, because this is it's confusing the crap out of me right now.
Speaker 1:You know, like these, these I've watched these things used incorrectly and and the consequences of that. And now I'm seeing a completely different picture and and I don't know why, I don't know why. So I watched dog after dog come out and most of them had e-callers on and I was I was just perplexed, right, totally perplexed. So that was also an important point in in my life and in training because it opened me back up to e-callers again. Now I didn't use e-callers for a little bit after that, but from that seminar I was lucky enough to make some new friends and they did look at my, my dog, and they were being really nice really nice, yeah, and and I told them I'm like, look, it's okay, you can, you can give it to me.
Speaker 1:You know, like I know she's not good. And they're like, yeah, you know, I don't know. And one of the one of the guys his name was Waleed, and um, he came up to me and he's like, well, where do you live? And I'm like I live 15 minutes from here. And he's like, well, I usually come here and train. We have a little club for Belgian ring and we train here sometimes twice a week, sometimes once a week.
Speaker 1:He goes, if you want, come out. You know, if you're serious, come out. I said, I'm serious, you know that that's not even up for debate. And so that was that was really the start of it. That was the real start of it. So, um, I did, I ended up coming out to club and and, um, you know, we, we became friends and became close and everything like that, and that was it. That was it. Um, I did, I did keep that Malinois for a year, and the reason was because he told me he goes, look, we, we tried, we tried protection with her. She wouldn't even bite to save her life, you know really yeah, she was that like she wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2:She was that bad she was way too timid, even, even.
Speaker 1:You know, she got to know Waleed after a while and she still wouldn't even play tug with him. You know, she wouldn't even play tug with me. Ball, yes, tug, no. She just wouldn't commit to anything like that. So he's like look, he's like, um, she's not a good dog, she's not a good dog at all, but she's a really great dog to learn how to train, you know, and I'm like what is this guy talking about? Like this dog sucks. Like I've already been through this.
Speaker 1:I went through this with my Doberman. My Doberman was better than this dog, you know. Like I didn't think you could get worse than my Doberman. And here I am, you know, and he's like you can learn how to use an e-caller. You can learn how to, you know, manipulate her drive. You can learn how to do all these things, um, because he was um a fairly experienced trainer and he had spent time over in Belgium and he had learned a lot about working dogs and a lot about Malinois and everything like that. Um, and he was I didn't know it when I met him, but he was the e-collar guru. I, I I had met and was starting to train with the e-collar guru at that time. Um, so he understood the whole. What is uh. Uh, you know now.
Speaker 1:Everybody calls it a popo right right but in its initial stages that's what he learned um, and and I ended up learning that system that many years ago before no way yes, so it's weird.
Speaker 1:It's just strange and and lucky I guess in a way. But, um, yeah, she was great, she was a great dog to learn how to do all that on. And then he had a training, a pet training business with his partner and at some point they included me in that and I basically apprenticed, I apprenticed with them, I shadowed both of them, so they were very different trainers. So Waleed was very much a working dog trainer that was doing pet training and his partner was a pet dog trainer that handled the business Right and he was excellent with people, excellent with clients, and I still talk to him every once in a while to this day.
Speaker 1:Um, he shaped a lot of how I interact with clients and, uh, and um, I had a great time with both of them, you know, and and learned a lot from both of them and I felt a lot more comfortable in that space that I was learning in at that point because I it was great, I was learning working dog training, I was learning pet dog training and, um, you know, things just kinda, things just kinda took off from there, you know, and then I got into competition training. Uh, while he'd at one point was like okay, you've learned enough, you know, and you've had a couple crappy Malinois at this point Right yeah.
Speaker 1:So in the time that I had makes my first Malinois, we were trying to weigh her name was Ming. Her name was Ming.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So your, your story is like very a little too close to mine Really.
Speaker 1:You had a.
Speaker 2:Minx. I mean, I have Minka and like she's kind of the same. Yeah, I mean I, I built her up to be able to bite, but like, yeah, she wants to be, at least she bites A cupcake.
Speaker 1:At least she bites, at least she bites.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and everyone's like oh, yeah, oh, and you're like damn it, damn it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I had. I tried other Malinois you know, from different places, and Waleed was never satisfied with the level of dog that that we were getting and, um, but they were good. They were good for practice, you know to to try to fix problems and things like that or try to build dogs. And one day he's like hey, I'm calling Dirk and we're going to get you a puppy from Belgium and I'm like, oh, really Like a real Malinois a real Malinois.
Speaker 1:Wow, and I'm like, well, yeah, but I don't know anything about this. How are we going to get it there? He goes, we're going there, and I'm like, oh you know, back then, back then again. People, we didn't have social media.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what Europe looked like other than from you know people telling me in textbooks, you know yeah, and and um. So I was, uh, I was very excited at the prospect of going to Europe for the first time in my life, and I was probably 20 years old, you know. So very exciting, very, very exciting stuff. And then to get a puppy, that's the cherry on the Sunday.
Speaker 2:right there yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know, and everything was kind of a surprise because you don't get pictures or anything beforehand. I don't know. I don't even know what the parents look like, I don't know what my puppy looks like, and breeders over there, especially back then, are very different than the breeders over here, and working dog breeders are very different than show dog breeders. So, um, yeah, we went to Belgium and it was not his first time. He had lived over there for short periods of time, so he was very familiar and and, uh, we had friends over there that I was now familiar with because they had come over here a few times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my first trip to Belgium was incredible. Yeah, so my first trip to Belgium was incredible, absolutely incredible. What an experience. And I think what made it even more incredible was, again, we, everything is so different. The people are different, the the smell in the air is different, the what they eat is different, the dogs are different. Um, it was an experience and, and I'll never forget it, I'll never forget it. And, um, I mean, I could talk about, I could talk about my first trip to Belgium forever. There was drinking involved.
Speaker 2:There was drinking a lot of drinking involved, mandatory, and what was kind of like the culture over there with dogs.
Speaker 1:I didn't get to see a lot in the pet dog respect over there, but in working dogs we did go to a lot of the training clubs. So they each of the, the areas, the, the towns and like counties and all all the for, for lack of a better explanation over there, the different areas in in Belgium, they all have, um, their own spaces to train and a lot of them are, are, um, their government owned land or areas, things like that, and and they are allowed to use those areas and set up whole club training fields. And it was an experience. There's a whole big culture, especially at that time, surrounding it. So you would go.
Speaker 1:We went to a bunch of different clubs that first trip and every club they had a cool, very well manicured field, beautiful fields that were fenced in. They weren't huge fields but they were, um, they were good size and they had all these cool ramps and jumps and obstacles and things like that and areas where they would have the dog search and hidden blinds and things and all these props. And then they had a clubhouse.
Speaker 2:So every club had a clubhouse and it was very common for every clubhouse to have a bar. That's hilarious.
Speaker 1:I love it, and they had a bar and it was very normal to drink. In fact, you're weird If you don't drink. You're weird and they'll let you know that real quick. Um, but their beer there is freaking amazing. So I had no objections to this Right.
Speaker 1:And um, you know, it was a lot of older gentlemen. There weren't many girls, um, there weren't many. Mostly the, their, their wives were, you know, at home doing whatever they like doing, but there were very few women. Um, there were a couple. There were a couple notable ones, but there were very few. It was mostly guys and mostly older guys, and there was a couple of young guys, especially like the decoys and things like that. But, um, and things like that.
Speaker 1:But, um, I also saw dogs like I'd never seen before. The. The level of dogs that I saw and what they were doing and the power behind these dogs was absolutely incredible. Had gotten in a suit, a bite suit, I think, once or twice before this trip, I think I'm trying to remember and, um, they said, hey, do you want to? Because I, I was not shy about saying you know, like I, I like taking bites from dogs and things like that, and and they're like hey, do you want to, do you want to take a bite from the, the national champion in 2001, which was like a year before, right? And I was like, heck, yeah, I do. And so they put me in a full belgian suit and, um, can I cuss on here?
Speaker 1:yeah, oh, they sent this motherfucker on me and he knocked me on my ass and they picked me up and, and holy hell, I had never, never felt anything bite like that, you know, like in a suit right. I the the pressure. I was like panicked but also somewhat enjoying it, right.
Speaker 1:And it was like I don't know whether to scream or or to to laugh Like and, and I could feel the nerves tingling up through my arm into my shoulder and I was like I've never felt anything like this. And you know they they told the dog to let go after a bit and they're like you want to do another one. I said okay.
Speaker 1:You know, so we did another one and then I afterwards I felt, you know, like once your adrenaline wears off, I'm like my arm was lumpy and it was throbbing and and it started like really burning, you know, and I was like, oh man, I screwed up my arm pretty bad, you know, and so like it was cold, so we were wearing jackets and things like that, and so I got into the clubhouse over by the fire and, uh, I looked at my arm and and you know, this is hours, hours later it was black from wrist to elbow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was like, oh man, I was like I can't, I gotta keep long sleeves on.
Speaker 1:you know they're gonna they're gonna think this is something else at the airport you know, yeah, so, um, that was cool, that was super cool and uh, yeah, it was, um, it was an eyeopening first trip, real, and and even even the training, um, you know, I, I I had seen a little bit at that point because, you know I, I was working with some legit trainers at that point, you know, at our club. But um, I, I just I noticed some of them were really old school in their training at that point. Old school so, like real, real old school.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then there was some younger trainers in the clubs that were more gravitating towards kind of like a hands-off approach and e-callers and food and things like that. But it wasn't as we know it today. It was still a very, very primitive version of the more balanced kind of stuff that we see today.
Speaker 2:And did you?
Speaker 1:get your puppy. I got my puppy.
Speaker 1:Um, that was, I consider, my first real working dog my first real, real working dog and I named him fat Louie. And I named him fat Louie because, uh, his breeder was a fat guy named Louie, and so they called him fat Louie. I love that. And his claim to fame was he could finish a case, not, not, not a pack, a case and a case. Over in Belgium they have plastic crates that hold bottles of beer. Right, he could polish off a crate, a whole crate, on his own in a night as his claim to fame. So I thought that was a perfect name for my puppy, of course, and so I brought home Fat Louie, yeah, and he went on to be absolutely incredible dog, taught me so much about training, he was a lot of dog.
Speaker 1:What sport did you do with him? So we started out in Belgian ring, right, we started out Belgian ring sport, which I was out, belgian ring sport, which, um, I was, you know, very passionate about learning, as was, uh, waleed and um, the problem was is we were both kind of broke. You know, we both didn't have much money and we had enough money to pay our bills, but that was really it, and there was no Belgian ring in the United States. So it was kind of like, okay, well, I'm training my dog for this, which is great, it's cool, I'm having a blast. But where am I going to compete? And it's like, okay, we'll go over to, we'll fly over to Belgium with the dog and we'll go compete in Belgium, which is that feasible, sure, but for us probably not. It's expensive, right? And and it's like, well, how are we going to get money while we're sitting in Belgium doing these competitions? We're not. You know, we can't afford that kind of thing. So we, in the meantime, uh, french ring sport was pretty popular, in the Northeast especially, and there were a lot of trials.
Speaker 1:And again, back then we didn't have the technology that we have now. So, uh, we had phones, but you only talked on them, that was it. They didn't have pictures, you couldn't have videos, you couldn't text, you couldn't do any of that stuff, right? So phones were just for for talking, and and you know, that was back in the days where you got charged. You know, during the day you got charged more and it was free after nine, you know.
Speaker 1:So, um, you had to find out a lot of stuff by going to competitions, actually going to competitions, and it's kind of um interesting to think about now, because if I want to be a dog trainer now, um, I think there's a lot of things that are so much easier. You know we can. We can sit in the comfort of our home and do cool things with our dogs. You know, have cool dogs, do cool things with our dogs, make all these cool videos, put them online for everybody to see. And you know that's how we got attention. And back then that wasn't an option. You had to go to competitions. And back then that wasn't an option. You had to go to competitions to be seen, you know, or you had to go out in public to be seen. So if we're talking about pet dog training, I had to take my dog out to stores, to vets, to, to, you know, just old school gorilla marketing. I would do crazy shit on sidewalks.
Speaker 2:I still tell my trainers to do that. Yeah, I'm like, get train your dog, go to a park, go to a busy street and train your dog. Like you'll get so many people coming up to you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And and and it was wild. It was wild and, and, like that's what we did. And if you, if you wanted to see dogs, so maybe from a breeder's perspective, right? Um, because at that time too, I was really getting into Malinois and bloodlines and breeding and really looking closely at dogs and studying them, and the only way I could see these dogs was to go to these competitions. Or if somebody got video and you know you're talking the tape days Somebody who's like shipping a tape to you.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that's how it happened and we were just starting to, you know, convert over to DVDs and stuff slowly, but we were still using tapes, vhs tapes back then, and if you wanted to see a dog from Europe, you had to go over there or you had to. They had the PAL system. So in Europe they didn't have VHS, they had PAL tapes and you had to have them send you one of those tapes. If you wanted to see any of that stuff and you had to convert it, you had to pay to get it converted to VHS so you could watch it, and it was, you know, whatever they put on it.
Speaker 1:Um, so that's how we saw things back then and you know you're talking about waiting weeks, weeks, to see an hour long tape of, uh, I don't know, bart Malone's dances with Malinois and and cause I don't think, uh, I don't know bart balone's dances with malinois, yeah, and and because I don't think uh, I don't think youtube came out till maybe 2004 okay, but I mean even then, like there was nothing on youtube, early youtube was like, yeah, nothing, yeah, because I mean I've always been.
Speaker 1:Now there's just so much and I feel like an old person saying it there's just so much technology.
Speaker 2:Now there's just so much, and I feel like an old person saying it there's just so much technology now there's so many apps now, but I've always been like one of those people that was on top of using new things.
Speaker 1:So YouTube came out. I was on it like I wanted to see what YouTube was all about. Plus, I wanted to to know stuff and there was never. There was never enough for me to be satiated. You know, as far as my curiosity and things, and, and you know so, fast forward to modern times, um, with all this technology we have and and like you're going to laugh Um, I asked you a couple of months ago about chat, gpt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and I was like this one, like people really use it. I started messing around with it and I'm like, oh, now I get it. I'm like now I'm like, okay, you're using chat GPT, you're using chat. And now I'm now I can pick them all out. Now I'm like I see, yeah, I see, I get it, I get it. I wish I had this, I wish I had this. Back then, holy crap, I was like, okay, so, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's um, we would go to French ring trials and like that's how you met people and that's how you saw these dogs. But again, it was very, um, regional, right it?
Speaker 1:was very regional. So you know, I lived in New York at the time so we would go to a lot of trials on the East Coast, mostly the Northeast, so I didn't really know anybody in California. And I still have them Don't make me pull them out but I have newsletters. So we had newsletters and there were editors, you know, for the newsletters and they would put together pictures that were taken at the trial and submitted and and they would put together a newsletter every month for NARA, you know, the ring sport organization, and we would pay and get our newsletters. And you know it was so freaking cool, like, oh, look look at that picture. That's such a cool picture, you know. And like now I'm like wow, I'm like I'm so spoiled because you know we'll go to a trial. And Anna, yeah, you know who does a lot of my pictures, she's got a hundred pictures to me within days and I'm sitting there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sitting there.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, this picture is garbage. And like, oh, this picture is amazing. You know, like I'm like I would have killed to have the garbage, garbage, the garbage picture. You know, all those years ago I would have thought was absolutely amazing. So you know, um, it's kind of a trip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a trip. What brought you out here? How'd you end up here?
Speaker 1:um, I well, it ties back into french ring sport, okay. So, um, basically, I once once I realized I was never doing belgian ring with fat louis we switched them over to french ring sport and we decided that we were going to dedicate our training to french ring sport and train for that. So, uh, that, uh, that's what we did. And I did my first couple of competitions with Louie out out in the Northeast, you know, closer to New York, and like all those went great. And then, by the time we reached ring three, um, I got invited to a trial out here in California and I flew with Louie on the plane and went out and did a trial out here and kind of fell in love with California. I, I, I always wanted to leave New York, but I never left New York because I didn't know where I wanted to go. And I know it sounds kind of silly because you're like um, duh, everybody loves California you know or like pick another state, stuff you know, but it's scary.
Speaker 1:It's scary leaving everything you know. And then my big issue with New York was it was very hard to train there because I grew up on Long Island and I lived on Long Island and it is an island. It's an island. It's very hard to leave the island. You have to pay money to cross bridges and tunnels and you know there's traffic. You never know how long it's going to take to do all these things and it's a pain in the ass. And on top of that, the weather it's half the year it's snowing and you know the weather's crappy and unless you have an indoor place you're not getting training done. And then in the summer it's super hot, super, super humid. So the weather's not exactly conducive to full-time dog training. And, uh, I even remember for pet dog training there'd be months in the winter where I'd have to go. I'd have to go weeks without seeing a client sometimes, which hurt me financially. But the weather was so bad you know blizzards or snow or things like that that I couldn't get to clients. And again, we didn't have virtual training or anything like that is, if you physically couldn't see the client, you weren't getting paid. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:So I always wanted to leave and I came out to California for competition and I had some friends that lived out here, you know. So I always wanted to leave and I came out to California for competition and I had some friends that lived out here, so that you know that always swings you in that direction and they're like look how cool it is out here. And and um, coming from New York, the expense factor was not as much of a shock to me as it would have been if I lived somewhere else. It was coming from maybe another state, because New York's pretty expensive. So I was like you know what I could? I could train dogs year round out here. This is pretty cool, you know, and I really like it out here.
Speaker 1:So from that point on I kind of made it a tentative plan in my head that I was going to leave New York and probably go to California. But I had to figure out all the logistics of that and how the hell that was going to work, because I had no idea. I had no idea. I was like where am I going to live? What am I going to do for work? I can't just move out there and be a dog trainer. Nobody knows me.
Speaker 1:So I, at that time too, I always loved dog training, but I was experiencing a bit of burnout and um, it, it, it was hard. I was a little frustrated. I was a little frustrated with pet dogs as far as the business itself. And then, um, because there was stuff I just I didn't know how to do on the business end of things and it was hard to to find help, right and um, it's hard doing everything on your own.
Speaker 1:And then I still had other creeping interests as far as things I wanted to do, maybe career wise, right, and I was still in my twenties. I was in my mid twenties, so I was still pretty young and I was like there's still stuff I want to do and one of the things that I always had an interest in was like law enforcement. So I was still pretty young and I was like there's still stuff I want to do and one of the things that I always had an interest in was like law enforcement. So when I went to college I took a lot of classes with the idea of being in law enforcement in the future in one way or another. So a lot of psychology courses, a lot of criminal justice courses, things like that.
Speaker 1:So when I was still in New York, I was actually testing for departments. But the problem is, um, on Long Island we have NASA on Suffolk County, so there's only two counties and there's only two departments and they don't hire very often and there's some of the highest paid officers in the country, if not the highest right. So it's incredibly competitive. Um, I won't get too into it because it it's, it's a story, but, uh, that wasn't panning out. So I was like I want to go somewhere where this thing is more normal Right. And um, I was like you know what? Southernifornia? I want to join lapd, I want to be in the fire, I want to be in the middle of all of it, I want to be in special units. You know all that crazy 20 year old stuff yeah, I would never do that now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, never. But um, so yeah, I, I I was like, all right, you know, I'll move out and start testing for departments. I could crash at my friend's place. I'll bring my dogs with me, you know, and whatever happens happens. So that was in 2007, 2008, the beginning of 2008, when I finally drove across the country with whatever I could fit in my vehicle and drove out to California, said goodbye to everybody and that was that. And um, just like that, and right after that, the economy took a shit. Oh, yeah, so literally right after I moved to California, the economy took a shit. All the government jobs, basically, were on a hiring freeze and I was screwed. I was like this is not good.
Speaker 2:Isn't it funny how life works, though it's so weird, it's so crazy. It's like no Steph you're not supposed to do that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we're going to make sure you don't do that.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh, this is terrible, this is terrible. What am I going to do? I can't go back home. You know I'm not doing the drive of shame back to New York Like anything's better than that, you know. So I ended up going back to dog training Not that I ever technically left it, but here I am. I'm like all right. Well, I guess I'm training dogs and I ended up finding somebody out. Well, I guess I'm training dogs and I ended up um finding somebody out here who he was good on the business end of things.
Speaker 1:Um he was an okay dog trainer. It was not his forte. He was better at running the business and being that person, um, but I kind of saw the potential for a really good partnership because we complimented each other well as far as um running a training business. So you know, I could train all the dogs. I could train all the dogs. You know, you hand me a dog, I'll train it, I'll figure out how to train it. If I don't know how to train it, and, um, I'll come up with training programs like all this stuff. I'll figure out how to train it. If I don't know how to train it, and, um, I'll come up with training programs like all this stuff. I know I can do all this stuff and I'll make sure clients are happy. I'm good at dealing with clients at this point, right, and you can run the paperwork. End of things, right. So that's kind of how it started.
Speaker 1:And, um, I was broke as shit. I was broke as shit, I, I. You know, initially, when I moved out to California, I stayed at one of my friend's places and she was gracious enough to, you know, give me, give me a spot to let me and my dog stay for for a time, um, but you know, then, then I, I had to move on from that and I, I slept on a couch. I slept on a couch for a year and a half. I slept on a couch, I slept on a couch for a year and a half, you know, and then, as we did better, we did better and money started to really come in. We ended up finding a large ranch, because we quickly outgrew the tiny little place that he had right, that was in a not good neighborhood, and we started looking for another place. You know, a place with some land that we had right, that was in a not good neighborhood, and we started looking for another place, you know, a place with some land that we could, you know, expand the business, right. And so we found this huge ranch and it was beautiful. It was beautiful, it was incredible. I looked at it.
Speaker 1:I'm like we're never getting that, they're never renting to us, right? Like I'm too young and you have no credit, you know, and God knows what else, right? So, um, but I did have credit, I actually did have some credit. Even though I didn't have a penny to my name, I did have credit. So we wrote them letters and got them reference letters and things like that, and they ended up giving us a shot and we leased this place and you know it, it took off. It took off from there. We, we worked very hard and, um, we got to really, really um, explain, expand our client base in LA and take on more dogs and then you know employees and things like that and, um, you know it became a lot to manage but, but we did it and we got so crazy and so popular. We had all these celebrity clients and it's. I feel like it was a whole different life at this point.
Speaker 1:Like I don't even feel like that actually happened.
Speaker 2:It's so wild because I'm in the process of helping Stephanie get her business up and she's like what is this she's? Submitting all of these pictures and it's like a bunch of pictures of her with celebrities and I was like what? Like you just never mentioned like any of that. I was like what is this in another lifetime? It totally was at this point, like I have videos.
Speaker 1:So I didn't. I didn't know, in that system I couldn't put videos in, so I was trying to upload videos. I was like, why is it that's working? You know these are cool videos. So, yeah, I have all these videos, like you know, movie stars working for bands, for music videos, and then just training all these celebrities, dogs, so many, so many, and um, doing, doing, you know, protection dogs, family protection dogs.
Speaker 1:So my, my, my, uh, my bite work and protection experience came in clutch you know, yeah, it's true, because that's what ended up getting us on a lot of the TV shows and everything. So, all the doctors, storage wars, all these, all these TV shows that we ended up on like it was because of the protection dogs yeah, it was because of. I had, you know, multiple Malinois at that time that I was training for competition and doing protection work with, and they were solid dogs, solid dogs. And you know, I even remember, um, getting to some of these sets. You know, getting to some of these sets and, and you know I walked into this initially I had no clue what the entertainment industry was about and how things worked, and it is absolutely hurry up and wait. It is hurry up and wait and they rush you along and over here, and you got to go here and here's your room and this, and that we got to get ready for, okay, yep, nope, not yet, nope, not yet, nope, you're probably going to be here for another like two hours. Yeah, no, no, we're behind on this, you know. And so, like that, dealing with that as a person is fine, you know, like, no sweat off my back, but having animals involved, um, can complicate things pretty quickly, right? So, uh, that that was a whole learning experience.
Speaker 1:And then, for example, uh, one of the craziest things was the doctor's TV show. They were all fantastic, it was a wonderful experience, I have zero complaints about it. All fantastic, it was a wonderful experience, I have zero complaints about it. Um, the dog I have so much love for the dog that I had at the time. You know that I had used on the doctors and, uh, he, he ended up being a huge cornerstone to my breeding program too. Right, so a lot of the the dogs down from my lines that I have uh with with Malinois, uh are, are related to him or go back to him. But that dog, um, walked onto that big crazy set cameras, booms in his face, strangers in his face and did his job flawlessly, like he'd been, you know, doing this for 50 years and and like it was. It was cool to see from a training standpoint because I was sitting here like, oh, my God, this is, this is like a lot for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is stressful for me. And and to sit there and watch him, just, you know, take it all in stride and be like this is cool, this is great, I'm having a great time. Are you having a great time? As long as I get to bite, I don't care. You know, and he was just so good at his job and and safe and um, you know, we didn't have a rehearsal. Everybody thinks we had a rehearsal for the doctors. We went on stage in front of a live audience, unrehearsed. They told me what I was supposed to do, but we didn't get to practice it and it was just one take done and and what did you do, like send the dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll, I'll show you the video, but, um the on on the doctors uh, what was? What was the big, big, tall young guy? Uh, dr Travis. Dr Travis, super cool guy, big guy. We struggled to find a suit that would fit him he's so big, you know and, uh, we found a suit and borrowed a suit from some friends, got him a suit and uh, basically, it's that big, huge stage and there's a live audience right there. Big live audience, cause it's a big production. The doctors was, I think, at its prime. It was. This was like 2011, 2010, 2011. Doctors was like at its prime. Then it was a huge show and they had Dr Phil next door, right. So, this huge stage and obviously very slippery flooring and lights everywhere, cameras everywhere and they're like're like, okay, you're going to basically come out from this door over here and you're going to stay here with the dog and travis is going to come out on the other end of the stage, so he's not going to come up and tease the dog. He's not there's other people around.
Speaker 1:The dog's never like bit him before the dog's never bitten him before, never seen this suit before. In retrospect, this was a bad idea and I think I'd be a lot more hesitant. You know, as older adults, stephanie. Now you know I'd be a lot more hesitant to agree to this, but in my defense I didn't have all the facts until we were already doing it right. So I thought this was going to be a rehearsed thing and it was not. So yeah, so I'm sitting there shitting myself because I'm like I hope, I hope my dog does what he's supposed to do and doesn't. Like you know, he's never tried to go for any cameraman, but have you ever seen those booms? What they look like? They're they're they're?
Speaker 1:they're a big stick with a fuzzy toy on the end of it and they love holding them in the dog's faces. And I'm like what if I tell him to bite Travis? Who's who's at the other end of the stage, which is, I want to say, you know? I want to say you know at least 75 feet away, 50, 75 feet away, you know it's far. And then I got, you know camera guys right over here and they have all this equipment that looks really very much like rewards I use for the dogs. You know, I'm like shit, so uh, but everything went perfectly. And um, he, you know, zoned right in on dr travis and on the suit and ran across the stage and bit him and thank god, he outed when I asked him to, because I was very worried about that.
Speaker 1:He was a very tough dog. He was a very tough dog. Control was always. I did compete him, but uh, he was. I got laughed at when he was a puppy. They they're like good luck competing this dog, right. Yeah, I made it to French ring too with them, and then I had to. I had to quit, you know, because I don't want to do the things I I'm. I'm. I would rather enjoy my dog, retire him, enjoy him for who he is and we've accomplished enough, rather than resort to, um, unfair training practices to try to get more titles. So that was what it was. And then we just did cool movie shit, you know, we did music videos, we did fun stuff and and he was fantastic at it. But, yeah, every once in a while I was like God, I hope you let go. I hope you let go when you're supposed to. But, um, so yeah, I mean it. It it feels like a lifetime ago.
Speaker 1:It feels like you've lived like a million lives so many.
Speaker 2:So what sport are you doing now, uh?
Speaker 1:so now, um, I do PSA, so protection, sport association. I uh, prior to COVID I still was, I I had Haas and I had competed Haas and French ring and then I moved to the current location. So I was in um, ventura County before on a ranch and then I, I I bought my ranch that I have now here in San Diego, so it's it's quite a while away from where I used to be. So when I moved here I kind of struggled to find a good group to train with for ring and I had a couple of young dogs that I was starting to bring up and then COVID hit, so that just made things go from dicey to absolutely impossible. So I ended up selling those young dogs to the police and, just like I'll, I got to see what's happening with this COVID thing, because I get COVID, you know.
Speaker 1:So there was a lot of. There was a lot of turmoil right and, um, nobody was really training because nobody wanted to be around each other. They, they wanted to socially distance and you know that everybody was scared, everybody was scared, so there was really no training happening. So I kind of just took a break and hung out. And when things started getting better, I found a really cool IGP club. Igp is Schutzen, but just modern Named.
Speaker 2:Yeah, modern yeah.
Speaker 1:And I feel like they change their name every five years. So I found a cool little club and I I had started up another young Malinois and, um, it was all cool, but I also, not too long after that, kind of stumbled back on PSA. So I had known about PSA since 2003. So the first time I ever saw PSA was 2003. All the OGs and PSA came out to Long Island to do a presentation on PSA at the place where I first started out. You heads were so in ring sport at that time and we were like you know this is goofy, this is stupid, this is for rednecks, you know we're French ringers and we're better than you.
Speaker 2:You know, and and that whole whole takes a drag of a cigarette.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like um no, but I, I I always thought it was cool. You know, I liked the concept of it and and it was super, super new back then, like it was, it was just starting back then it was very different, very, very different. So, you know, in in over the years you know, we had, we had crossed paths with, uh, people training for PSA here and there, um, and it wasn't really a thing on the West coast, it was mostly on the East coast and I was still on the East coast. So, like you know, we would run into to, um, those people, we'd run into those people, um, every once in a while and um, you know, it was cool. But, like I said, we were so involved in ring sports. So circle back, you know, to more more recent times, um, through one of my friends in ring sport. Uh, we were just after COVID, there wasn't really a hell of a lot of training happening, but we had this goofy little get together girls club thing that my friend kind of orchestrated over here in Temecula. You know, on Saturdays thing that my friend kind of orchestrated over here in Temecula, you know, on Saturdays, and uh, she did Mondia ring and then there was another person that did Mondia ring. And then there was these two girls that did PSA, right, and they were, they belong to a local club, uh, to, to NCC. And then here comes me right and I'm like trying to do IGP with my dog and and, uh, so we all kind of met on Saturdays and we all would just kind of, you know, hang out and work, work our dogs, right. There was no real structure, but we just work our dogs.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, one of the PSA people was Katie. So, uh, katie won, um, I watched her, you know, put on a suit and work a couple dogs and I had hoss at the time too, and but but he was older and um, I'm watching her work dogs and I'm like this girl's good, you know she, she, she's good. I'm like, hey, katie, how long have you been decoying? Yeah, how long you've been putting the suit on, she goes, I don't know, maybe like three years, and I'm like what? What? Only three? Yeah, I'm like she's better than I was after like 10 years. You know, I was like, okay, you know she's good. And um, she's like, hey, uh, do you think I could catch Haas? I really want to practice some leg dogs. I don't really get to work leg dogs. I'm like, yeah, sure, you know she looks totally good and totally safe and like she did a great job working Haas.
Speaker 1:And so, like you know, things kind of happened and we we started talking and having our our Saturday groups and it was really fun, and um talked a little more about PSA and then it was kind of like hey, maybe you want to do PSA. And I'm like I don't know, maybe I do want to do PSA, I could do IGP and PSA, I'll just get another dog for PSA. And so that's kind of what happened. I ended up getting Alfie um for PSA and another club formed with with Katie and some other people, and I joined that club and started training for PSA. And best decision ever, it was another one of those, uh, pivotal points in life.
Speaker 1:Um, because during COVID I was bored. I was really bored. Um, not a lot was happening and I I still wanted to train. Like I don't know life without training dogs. And so I was like I'm going to train, even if that means that I get puppies like just random puppies. I buy puppies from breeders, train them and either keep them or move them along, you know, or move them on. That's what I'm going to do. So, like I got a couple of border collies, I got a couple of um just different. A couple of bullies, a couple um, I got the, the, the doodles I just got. I got a couple of different. I got a couple of different dogs, you know, and and um it was. It was cool. I went way deep down the force-free rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:Oh, just for funsies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so I was like I got the time, let me see, I I I had messed around a lot with um force-free stuff much earlier in my training career and and, uh, we just didn't have a lot of resources so we had, like Karen Pryor's books, but that was really it. I'm talking again, you know, pre dog training information on the internet or pre social media era, right, so I played around with clickers, um, when Wally and I would import females for breeding from Belgium Malinois. They didn't know anything, they were literal kennel dogs so they had no training. Um, a lot of times they were very out of sorts because, again, they'd never seen the world, never left anything, never known anything. And here they go, traveling from Belgium to New York city not just the United States, new York city, so a completely different um life for them.
Speaker 1:And I kind of took that as an opportunity. I was always fascinated with um, like Marine mammal training when I was a kid and all that stuff. So I thought that was cool. I didn't know what it was, but I always thought that that was super cool. So I found out about Karen Pryor and I had gotten ahold of a couple of her books and I was maybe uh, we're throwing it back to when I was maybe 19, 20. Right, and so I started trying to clicker train a lot of these dogs, because they were pretty clean slates, you know. Aside from having a puppy that's not had any training, this was as clean of a slate as I could get because they had no experience either way, um, as far as training goes, or socialization. So it was cool. I messed around, then I got made fun of a lot for it too. They're like oh, you're a dolphin trainer now you know, just trying to learn clicker training and they're like stupid.
Speaker 1:We don't train these dogs with clickers. You know, we are, you know, and it's like we make them do stuff and I'm like, okay, you know.
Speaker 1:So I just, you know, I just always, I always, yeah was seeking out a better relationship with dogs. You know, and even to this day, like I have dogs, because I love dogs, I love animals, I love dogs and I like the potential in relationships with them, right, so I, I think for me, training is, is very relationship based and I want to build on that. I don't really have an interest in dog training in the sense that I just want to make them do stuff. If that, if that makes any sense, right?
Speaker 2:So, um, I think that's a good thing, yeah, and I think that's what we need more of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's it's, it's a hard conversation. It's a hard conversation, Um, because I think that a lot of trainers will tell you oh no, there's way less ego now. I'm like, no, there's more ego, and dog training Now it's just presented very differently, yeah. So I think that, um, there's a lot of stuff going on because it's so easy to do. Now, right, I could set up, I could set up a business. I could, I could, I could, uh, use all these apps, use chat, gpt, and and I'll have a rocking dog training business. I don't know what the hell I'm doing, I don't know how to train a dog, but I have a really, really good business going on. And who cares if I off a couple of clients and don't train their dog? There's so many coming to me. It doesn't matter, right, yeah, so I think there's a lot of that mentality out there. I can't do that because I can't sleep at night.
Speaker 2:I don't know how. I feel like you're kind of the opposite, like you are so humble with the amount of experience that you have. I feel like I have to like drag it out of you you know, and I'm like you know, talking to you about Minka and my dog, and you're like, oh yeah, I did ring three and like all of this stuff and I'm like I need help. Like help me, can we train? Like, why are you not leading each other? Yeah, why are you not leading shadow courses?
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to. We're going to train tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to train tomorrow, but, um, yeah, I, I think, um and as as I've I've gotten older, I've come to understand that it's not uncommon Um, there's definitely a little imposter syndrome, you know, going on there, um, I think that that sometimes, I think sometimes, you know, we overthink, we overcheck, you know ourselves to the point where you know you're, you're just, um, you're like I know, I know how to do this, but also, at the same time, I'm questioning everything that I do, everything that I do, is there a better way? Is there a better way? Because it looks like, you know, joe Schmo over here is doing this and it looks like it might be a better way of. Is what I'm doing wrong?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you run into that a lot you know I like I posted a video online that I got a lot of like hate for recently.
Speaker 1:Um, it was this video.
Speaker 2:It was. The Rhodesian is scared of a bike and he so some context, I did not take him out for a training session. Yeah, we live in vans, right? So, like every time we take the dog out we're in a different place. So I take him out and Toma is going to the bike shop to take his bike to get fixed and he rolls up and this dog absolutely loses it Like he. He has a. I have like a nose loop on him like a halty, because he will literally like drag me down the street.
Speaker 1:He like knocked me on the ground and I can't I can hold him. He's 120 pounds yeah, they're big yeah so he like in the video.
Speaker 2:It's in that moment Toma like whips out his phone and starts recording him because he's like freaking out and I'm like, hey, this is really valuable, you know.
Speaker 1:So we missed a whole initial reaction before that video.
Speaker 2:No, the initial reaction is in the video. Okay, so you see him. He's like backing up, he's trying to like run away. We're on a street so he's like gonna run into the street and I'm holding him Right and so. As you should, yeah, so I go into like walking drills, right, he's not a dog, especially like out in the world. You know, like he's a, he's a little bit of a nervy guy and it doesn't look pretty.
Speaker 1:Right, cause it never does yeah.
Speaker 2:He's like he's, he's dragging, he doesn't want to be there, he wants to run away, and I'm just it's completely over threshold and just like done. Yeah, are you talking into the wrong side? No, does it say back, it does. Okay, flip it over. You have to talk into the other side of the microphone. God, there you go. Sorry, but anyways, it's not pretty I told you it would happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, start playing with the microphone.
Speaker 2:You're like I don't know what side I need to be, on um and I'm just doing like walking drills back and forth until he chills out and he's not trying to run away. Yeah, um, that got me a lot of hate online because people were like that's not what you should do. What you should do is create distance, and you know click, and pay and then gradually, you know, and I'm like the next time I open up my van doors to a sterile environment.
Speaker 1:I'll let you know.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, exactly, and so that's kind of what I was like talking about online recently is there's always a better way, you know, there's always a better method, there's always, like, a better approach, but we unfortunately, like don't live in a sterile environment, we don't, you know, and so I think it's important for us to be able to like navigate situations in the most fair way with the methods that we have available to us, right and and um I I think that that point goes over a lot of um I can't say pet owners, but a lot of trainers, heads, and I think that whenever, whenever I'm, you know it's it's kind of a hard.
Speaker 1:It's a hard topic. It's a hard topic because I don't want to talk poorly about other trainers, but I think that there are some trainers out there and I don't want some trainers to speak for the majority of trainers. I don't want to fall down that trap, right, but I think that there are a couple of trainers out there that are um, they really feel that they're struggling for relevance. Right, they're struggling for relevance and, instead of getting it in a more legitimate fashion, they feel that if they put down methods that they don't understand, that that will get them more attention. And, yeah, sometimes it does, sometimes it does.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a pretty prominent figure out there now doing exactly that, whose name I won't mention Um. But you know, that person could be absolutely terrible at looking inward and all their energy is focused outward, on other trainers and what they're doing wrong. In a split second, in a moment, like they've never done anything wrong or anything controversial, and you know, in that moment, with you, with, with, um, the, the ridgeback, um, you know what were you supposed to do? What were you supposed to do at that point? It's damage control.
Speaker 2:You know, right, I'm supposed to put him away, I guess, but yeah, yeah, you know that's a whole other thing, you know, yeah, but I think I think, where people kind of get out of touch and like we're talking about the imposter syndrome, I think it's very easy to get back when you're training dogs.
Speaker 2:Right Because like I was kind of talking to Toma about it and I was like it's really frustrating because the people who go online and will like bash other trainers, I always go to their pages and there's nothing. There's nothing, there's not a video of them training dogs. Like clockwork, I take, I take board and train. Still, like I don't have to, you know, I I don't have to, but I do that because, like it's important for me to stay relevant, like it's important for me to work with owners, to work with dogs that are not perfect, that aren't my own.
Speaker 2:And show real life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, real life moments and.
Speaker 2:I did get a lot of people who DM'd me and they were like, thank you so much for this video, like that's literally my dog Every single time we go out and I'm just not leaving, like I'm not doing anything and you know, and it's like, well, is that really any better? And like I follow this other trainer and I haven't followed her for very long, but she's um very popular in breaking down scientific articles, okay, um, which I really really like. But I think that it can also be really damaging, because dog training is not black and white, dog training is not black and white and studies are done in a very controlled way, you know, and so helpful, but not not not gospel.
Speaker 1:Yes exactly.
Speaker 2:And so when you're telling these people like that's, that's learned helplessness and that dog like there we now have scientific evidence that shows that like learned helplessness is damaging in the long run and blah, blah, blah, and it's like, yes, a thousand percent, I agree with that, but also what's the alternative? Right, because what's the alternative?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean learned helplessness. We can if, if we're going to use that for an example, we can create that with training tools. We can create that without training tools. Yeah, we can create that with food. We can create that with with, you know, rewards in in general, or what would would be normally deemed a reward. We can create learned helplessness.
Speaker 1:So that information to me doesn't mean a lot, it's meaningless because the, the context of it, um, the context of it doesn't give enough information, right, so it's. And then the, the, the term itself, the term itself like to us. We're trainers, we're like, okay, learned helplessness. Like, look, all these freaking client dogs, I get in all these pet dogs, I get in most of them. I mean most of them resort to that before I even I've even touched them. As far as teaching them anything. Yeah, so it's a default with a lot of these pet dogs is is to go straight to learned helplessness. Um, and, and I didn't do that, you know I work them through it so that they don't react in that way anymore, but I didn't create that. So if I make a video and I show a dog doing that, um, I think that people really jump to conclusions way too quickly.
Speaker 1:You know, I, I, I had it happen. Uh, yesterday I, I made this. I made a post on faith, of course. I made a post on Facebook, right, about, you know, the, the stages of being a dog trainer, right, and the picture that I used was of an older, you know, lab puppy and it's on a place and it's got a flat collar on with its name tag and it has a slip lead on. The slip lead's not tight, it's not super loose, it's not tight though, and it's just a slip lead. You know, and and, um, you know, the dog in the picture is just looking at the camera with a goofy face, you know, looking confused. Which fits, yeah, which fits?
Speaker 1:The post, right, this one lady and I knew I made the post and I knew that this was a possibility. You know, when I use that picture because it doesn't matter, that's the whole joke, it doesn't matter what picture I use, somebody will find something wrong with it and it'll be the most obscure overthought. You know, little detail, where you're like, really, really, and I think with this lady, um, I already knew, I already knew. She asked is that a slip lead?
Speaker 2:I already knew.
Speaker 1:I already knew. She asked is that a slip lead? That's it, that's all she asked Is that a slip lead? And I look at that and and you know I'm I'm a functioning adult now, and 20 year old me would have had a very different response. But I'm a functioning adult now, or at least I'd like to think so. So I look at that and I'm like God, this is so disappointing. I'm disappointed, I'm sad for her because I'm like you have no context in this picture.
Speaker 1:Number one Okay, so you can't possibly know anything about this puppy. You can't possibly know anything that's going on here. You have no idea, clearly, what the slip leads on the dog. For, right, I could have just gotten the dog from the client that way. Yeah, I could have. Maybe I didn't put the slip lead on. Maybe he had it on. Maybe the dog is a dog that learned how to rip out of collars and made it a really bad habit and that's why the slip leads on him, so that he doesn't get away with doing that. Maybe he has no idea what leash pressure is and I want a really nice, easy, safe, comfortable way to start introducing it to him. There's so many possibilities, right?
Speaker 1:But this lady. She just, you know, is that a slip lead? And I'm like, I look at her page Of course it's private, it's always private and and she has like a couple of random pictures of a lab puppy with a flat collar on and like a really close up picture, so you can't see anything else that's going on. I'm like, okay, I got you, I understand who you are, you know. So she, I responded yes, just simply yes, I don't owe her an explanation, okay, but I'm going to entertain her question, right. So she responded with a sad face oh, yeah, very sad, and I said why are you sad? I asked her a question, so I'm not going to get mad at her.
Speaker 1:Basically, all I'm going to do is question, I'm going to ask questions. So if somebody writes something like that, I'm just going to ask them questions. I'm going to ask them lots of questions as long as they're willing to keep responding. I'm going to keep asking them questions because my hope in doing so is that maybe, maybe there's a small, slight chance that maybe this person's somewhat intelligent and maybe they will stumble upon self-discovery at some point. Right and um, they will maybe consider that their nerd, their, their initial knee jerk reaction is unwarranted. Initial knee jerk reaction is unwarranted. Very hopeful of me. Yeah, you know, it's just um, it's annoying, like it's irritating, but at the same time, you know, I I feel like there's much bigger examples.
Speaker 1:That's a slight, a very small and slight example of of something that could be much bigger. It's just, it's unnecessary. So if you're an intelligent person, ask an intelligent question. You know, I noticed there's a slip lead on the dog. Is it being used for? I don't know, whatever you're suspecting. Is it being used for abuse? You know, obviously the answer is going to be no, but you know, I I like curiosity, but ignorant statements are not. It, you know? And I just feel like there's a lot, and it's on both sides. It's not just force-free trainers, um it, it's on both sides. Uh, there's, there's a lot of trainers on the other end of the spectrum that unfairly classify force-free trainers, and I get it, I understand there's no such thing as force-free, I get it. So let's call them, you know, positive reinforcement trainers, right? They think they just throw cookies at dogs and I'm like no circling back to going down the rabbit hole you with your clicker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, going down the rabbit hole, and I, I, I mean you can, you can look, I have all the books and everything you know but I think, I think what's grounding, at least like for me, is the dogs in front of me.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like I, I know, I know the dog in front of me, I see the progress that we're making. Like I understand where people are coming from, I understand, you know that you, you don't think that this is like the best way to do something, but they're not there. But they're not there and I think, like especially for dog trainers, like if you start to get affected by that or start like questioning yourself or like comparing yourself to other people in front of you, like get off the internet and just focus on the dogs in front of you. Yeah, and that's something that, like, I'm very grateful for. I started off as a dog walker and so I got my hands on a lot of dogs very quickly and my business grew very fast.
Speaker 2:I never operated out of my own. Like understanding Like I was always very fantastic. Yeah, like I was always very transparent with my clients of like I'm very new, but here's what's been working for me and here's what we're going to. Here's what we're going to try. You know, like I do not have the gospel, but let's just see. You know we're going to be learning together and so I never I never got caught up in kind of like the online world or feeling like I needed to know everything or compare myself to other trainers because I was like one. I don't have time for that because I have too many dogs. Yeah, I'm busy, but also it's so obvious when you're actually training dogs what the answers to your questions are you know it's so, so obvious when you're actually working with dogs.
Speaker 1:It is, you know, the, the. The dogs are very good at making it very clear very fast and and that's kind of the whole, that's kind of the whole point. You know it's like aren't we supposed to be helping the dogs understand things better? And if that means we use correction, or if that means we're using tools, or if that means we're shoving food in their face, I mean whatever that means, I think the dog determines that you know, not, not necessarily us yeah, and that's the other thing too, that I'm getting a lot and this is just kind of me going on a rant but the well, why aren't you using food?
Speaker 2:well, why aren't you?
Speaker 2:and I'm like, okay, this dog does not care, might not be the best option, like this dog doesn't care if I throw food in his face, like he doesn't even finish the bowl of food that I place in front of him. Right? Food is not always the answer to the problem. It is for a lot of trainers. It blows. It blows my mind, though, because, like I remember when I was like when Shane first started taking board and trains like when you take board and trains, they don't want to take food from you, right?
Speaker 2:away and he's very used to getting these like high drive, more like sportier dogs, and he called me. He's like Meg. What the fuck am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to train this dog Like? It literally won't even eat from a bowl and I'm like? Welcome to pet training, yeah.
Speaker 1:And and and I think one of the one of the great things that um kind of got instilled in my head, you know, during my my time deep in the rabbit hole of of the, the force-free crowd and and um doing a lot of that stuff, was, you know, we we tend to, especially as sport trainers, protection sport trainers um, we tend to view reward as usually one of three things is food, toys or praise, right, and we try to carry that over into pet dog training, because a lot of us are pet dog trainers also and have a business. And you know we've forgotten. We've forgotten how many other things are rewarding to dogs. You know, even just space, space is rewarding to them, or or the environment, the environment, or, or, you know, in in the terms of of pet dogs, you know, hey, let's do this and then you can go sniff. You know, so like it.
Speaker 1:There. There's so many other facets and and and um types of of rewards that you know I get clients all the time. How many times you've gotten a client? That's just like. You know, my dog can't wait to get to the park, like he just goes crazy at the park and he's dragging me to the park.
Speaker 1:That's our reward. Any progression towards, towards that direction, towards the park the park, is your jackpot. Any progression towards, towards that direction, towards the park the park, is your jackpot. Right, and they're just like, oh, my God, you know, so it, it, yeah, I mean they, they, um, they explore a lot of that and I think, I think, a lot of it comes from um.
Speaker 1:You know and you can correct me if I'm wrong a lot of these trainers, the, the very um positive, reinforcement, force-free crowd, uh, they, they tend to favor dogs that also carry a ton of sensitivity. So your Border Collies, you know, that's the most obvious example. And and, like I said, I I've, I've, I've trained plenty of Border Collies. But, like during COVID, I got a couple of Border Collie puppies, you know that weren't, that weren't um tarnished, yeah, and and they are who they are, and um messed around with them and and um, you know, even, even some of the, the doodles, you know they can be incredibly sensitive dogs, yeah, and and by sensitive I don't mean sensitive to correction, I mean sensitive, sensitive. So you um want to teach them something and you know, you finally got them working for a little bit of high value food, because they usually, you know, are a little, a little too distracted by things going on. You really have to have a sterile environment.
Speaker 1:It has to be quiet because they're sensitive to noise and then they're sensitive to which food you're using. So, you know, you got to use really meaty stuff, because they don't like kibble, they're not ready for that. And, and to get them in a better habit of taking food. And, um, if you offer them food too quickly, they're gone. If you come over them as you're offering them food, they're like ah, I'm out of here, right?
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of merit in in, um, working with those types of dogs, or just dogs that are just like I don't, I'm not gonna work for food, I don't want to do this for food, or I don't like toys. So, you know, I think a lot of that's come to. I think a lot of that's come to light. You know, because of the internet, because of social media, we're sharing information, ideas at light speed. Now, right, but, um, there was a good time where you know if a dog didn't work for food or a dog didn't work for toys, you know it got washed, right, and. And now it's like uh, it's, it's not common knowledge, but we have a lot more practice and a lot more information. It may be layering in, you know, certain rewards with other rewards to build value, right.
Speaker 1:So, uh, you know, I, I think there's a lot, a lot, that we can learn from them. I think there's a lot that we can learn from them and I think there's a lot they can learn from us too. You know, I think, as trainers, our personal dogs, obviously, that we want to work with, we cherry pick, our clients' dogs, we cherry pick, you know so a lot of trainers from both ends of the spectrum. If they were working with ideal dogs from the opposite ends, it would be difficult, it would be really difficult for both of them. You know, for for these guys to work with these crazy malinois that are are overly driven I would, I would, I would pay, I would pay your baby, would pay your baby gate.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Your baby gate management is not going to work. You know they don't care about your spatial pressure. You know, like it, it it's. It's a totally different monster than than they're used to, and and they're running at a thousand miles an hour on high octane fuel, you know. So that sets up for a very different trainer and very different picture versus you know, your, your sensitive little border collie, who you can't train outside yet because outside's overwhelming for him. Yeah, you know so. It's two totally different ends of the spectrum and I appreciate them both, you know. Oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:So and I feel like most of us like truly balanced. That's kind of like the category that.
Speaker 1:I wish there was some other.
Speaker 2:I know I know there's like such a spectrum of it, but I feel like maybe, if you ask chat GPT, the good balance trainers are like mostly using positive reinforcement and good balance trainers are like using marker words, using clickers, like using all of the foundations that come from right, so that side.
Speaker 1:So I sit there and it's like, well, what is, what does that make me? Because you know, from the the force free community, they're sometimes witch hunting of balance trainers. I'm like, well, what does that make me? Then, like, am I a balanced trainer? Cause I do use correction, I do use tools, but my training is super reward-based. Yeah, super reward-based. You know that's always my go-to, is, is going to be. How can I create this situation to help the dog understand what behavior I want? You know, and and uh, use a lot of reward in doing that initially, but, you know, eventually I add in in pressure, you know, but does that make me an evil balance trainer? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know and and then you know the the um, sensible part of me kind of comes in and knocks the other part out and is like it doesn't matter. It literally doesn't. It doesn't matter, who cares I kind of like I don't need to label yourself.
Speaker 2:That's the joke, yeah I do not. I do not really pay attention to like dog trainer, like I do not watch dog trainer content yeah I do not listen to other dog trainers like I can't, because it I think it would send me down the rabbit hole and be like, oh my god, I'm horrible.
Speaker 1:I'm a horrible into a crisis sometimes, yeah like I.
Speaker 2:I can't. I just have to focus on, like the dogs in front of me. You know, did you lose your microphone? Oh, I'm just making.
Speaker 1:I'm all paranoid now.
Speaker 2:I'm like is this the right of spinning the microphone? Yeah, because I'm like playing. Is this the right side Of spinning the microphone?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I'm like playing with it and I don't know if it's facing the right way. Yeah, it's hard. I don't want to pay attention because I don't want to feel that way.
Speaker 2:You know, it creates a lot of self-doubt, a lot of self-doubt, and you've been doing this for over 20 years, almost 25 and have learned from, like some of the best people in the world, right and there's still feel that way and there's self-doubt and and um, you know.
Speaker 1:But the other end of it is is like okay, well, if I don't pay attention to that and I ignore it, am I creating a false sense of confidence? Number one and number two am I missing out? I have really bad FOMO as a trainer, so I want to know you're like wait yeah, what are? We doing. I want to watch because if there's somebody's doing something that's better or something I see like, oh, that's cool, that's that's smart. Yeah, I want to use that. I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't want to miss that you know, that's true, I think that that's that important. I think for me that happens in person. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, I can't. I'm stuck here, so no van life for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I, I am lucky in that I can kind of like follow around and just kind of like shadow trainers and work with people, but that's kind of what keeps me sane, is like staying off the internet and it's just like everything is in person. Yeah, you know. Yeah, that's nice. But even like with my virtual shadow program, um, I coach trainers, but I'm just coaching them on the very basics and I tell them that from the get-go I'm like look, I have not reinvented the wheel. You know, this is what I have learned from other people. It's what I've learned from training the dogs.
Speaker 2:I don't want you guys to take what I teach you as gospel. I want you to take bits and pieces that you like and mix it with. You know things that you learn from another trainer or things that you learn on your own, and also like learn from each other, because I'm having them like post videos and stuff and I'm like I don't care how you train a dog after this, but you need to explain why you're doing what you're doing. That's all I care about. I don't care if you leave and you're like I'm not going to do anything. That Meg said.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to use the marker words that she says I'm not going to do any of. Meg said I'm not going to use the marker words that she says I'm not going to do any of that, but like explain the why behind it.
Speaker 1:Right, it's your personal journey, so I mean, make it yours, but you have to understand why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah, and I think that's kind of the beauty of dog training is we're all you know. Unless you're talking to the, the, the person on the internet that's like no, I'm a self-made. I didn't have any mentors. I learned all dog training myself, by myself. You know, like, I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about most of your dog trainers out there that are successful and they're doing good work.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, we all had mentors yeah, usually multiple mentors, and and we're a product of, you know, the, the, the soup that was created with with all those mentors, you know, and, and what we picked, things that we liked and we kind of shoved off things that we don't like or or maybe, um, methods that that don't work well for us. You know that don't jive well with us. But, yeah, I think you know, for me it's hard to. It's hard some days, you know, some days I'm like full throttle, like, yeah, training all my dogs and, you know, helping these people with their dogs and, yeah, you know, you're so like hell, yeah, you know. And then there's other days where you're like I am so tired, I'm so my brain hurts.
Speaker 2:That's literally me today. I'm like on the phone with Toma, I'm like I'm done being a dog trainer.
Speaker 1:This is enough. Yeah, like it's just it. It happens and, and you know, a lot of times when I'm training at PSA club, I freaking love my club, I love all those. I call them kids, you know, but, but they, they know they're not kids, but you know I call them kids but I love all those kids and and like, uh, I have so much fun with all of them and and um, they're all, they're all great people Lucky to have them around and um, they're so open-minded, you know, it's, it's kind of refreshing and it's really kind of brings out the, the passion and the love for dog training.
Speaker 1:For me personally, again, you know I'm having I have too many personal dogs, but I'm working my dogs, you know, and progressing and discovering new things all the time. You know, just that's the crazy thing about dog training is it just doesn't stop, it never stops. And it's like I think with one dog you know, like Alfie, for example, really challenged me as a trainer because he didn't start how I wanted him to and he, um, he didn't really, he didn't really work for food and and I had to find other ways. I had to find other ways because there were other things that I really loved about him that obviously he stuck around and and I kept him. But I had to find other ways to do things with him and it wasn't the way I wanted to do it. It wasn't the path that I wanted to happen and like that's dog training.
Speaker 1:And I'm so glad it happened. I'm so glad because it it made me so uncomfortable, like Ooh, what do I do? How do I? How do I train this dog? You know, like how do I get him to like this? Or how do I get him to understand that this is what I want him to do? And I'm like I'm going to have to sit and do work in my head. I'm going to have to refer back to some things. 'm gonna have to try some things like that's that's dog training. That's dog training is adjusting to the dog in front of you, right, and and that's how it should be. It doesn't mean I'm by no means saying that you shouldn't have a path and a plan that you like to follow as a dog trainer, but you can't give up and freak out On every deviation from that, like yeah.
Speaker 1:You can't like you're gonna end up being freak out on every deviation from that. Like, yeah, you can't like you're going to end up being a shitty dog trainer. If you do that, you can only train one type of dog that works for your path, right, um, so I think you know all the all these little challenges. Just, you know, they make us better, they build our confidence too. As dog trainers we're like cool, yeah, I've run into this problem before. It's not easy to fix, but you can absolutely fix it. I've done it Right.
Speaker 1:So now I have the confidence to say that in certain situations and the dog taught me that, right, but I'm so glad, so glad I didn't wash him for something so stupid like that. I can't even imagine like, I'm like what was? What was going through my head? But at that time I didn't, I didn't really know what I had in him. It was just kind of like I was frustrated, you know, as a trainer, and I was. It was about me. I was having a difficult time Meanwhile, a dog sitting there like I don't know what the hell you want me to do, you know, and I'm worried about me, right, yeah, so it's been refreshing and and, um, you know I I'm I'm so glad that you know the club that I train with now which is not something historically I'm used to or had the luxury of ever um is very patient and, um, I'm always happy to help them.
Speaker 1:You know I I try to just um, I try to not step on any toes or anything like that. You know it's Katie's club and Katie runs the club and I'm here. I'm here to help. If anybody needs help or they get stuck on, anything Like, if I have answers or I have ideas, I'll let you know. But if I don't know, I'll just tell you. But it's it's, it's nice, it's nice.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm at a spot with my dogs where I'm genuinely enjoying the journey. The competition's kind of just like the actual competition day is actually just stress for me. Yeah, it's just stress. Um, I used to like comp competition much more and and be in much more of a rush to get on the trial field, and now I'm like, no, I don't need to, it's fine, I'll just keep training my dog and making him better and maybe I'll trial again at some point. I'm just enjoying the journey. You know my dog screws up on the field. I'm usually laughing. You know old me would get so stressed that my dog made a mistake. You know old me I'm talking about a long time ago. I'd get embarrassed, I'd get stressed. What level in PSA did you just?
Speaker 2:trial.
Speaker 1:Alfie just did his one and then Tago just did his PDC and they're, they're, you know, Tago's two years old and and he's been a challenge, but in a totally different way, and Alfie's three, Um, but Alfie, Alfie took a really long time to mature and I've taken my time, you know. Uh, I, I, I probably could be playing in the twos with them right now, you know easily, but, um, I have other dogs I'm training. He's not my only dog, so you know that automatically you're going to move slower, you know, because you have to divide your time between you know, four dogs instead of one, right, If you were my only dog, jesus, I don't even know now didn't you get an award at the last trial?
Speaker 1:alfie got an award. I didn't get an award. What was it?
Speaker 2:decoy's choice, okay, yeah yeah, I remember, because that was the trial that me and tomah were at, and tomah like trialed um tomah was you have to watch this dog Like this dog's like a banger.
Speaker 1:I was so scared. I was so scared because, um, he, he, he does, he's, you know he's deceiving Um, but he's got a lot of power behind him, right, and I was very worried. I was very I'm like Katie, I don't know who the decoys are going to be for the level one. But you know, like I don't, I, I, on the courage test, I'm worried and she goes oh, it's going to be great. We call each other sweat, uh, and the reason we do is because early on, um putting on the suit and stuff, you get all sweaty.
Speaker 1:So we call each other sweaty buddy and then that just migrated into sweat. So now we call each other sweat and I don't know why that stuck, but it did. So she's just like, don't worry, sweat, don't worry, you know, like everything will be fine, everything will be. I about shit myself watching him go down the field and I'm like, oh, my God, my dog's going to die Because he just full scent, full scent, he just full send, full send. And and you know, thank god, uh, the decoy, um, justin, justin campos, thank god I. I mean, I could not have asked for a safer catch and a better recovery like he recovered so fast. Yeah, he got up instantly and went right into the drive. I was like, oh, thank god. But also I shit myself again because I was like there's no way, alfie's outing at this point, like my, my level, one's gone, like it's done, he's not gonna out and he didn't want to out. And then miraculously, on the third command, he outed and guarded.
Speaker 1:I went, holy shit, I had to gather my thoughts, because I'm like this is too exciting for me. You know, like I thought my dog was going to die. I thought the decoy was going to die. Now they're up and running and now my dog doesn't want to let go. And now, oh my God, and it's, it's. This is my first level one ever in.
Speaker 2:PSA.
Speaker 1:So I'm like okay, I got to remember what to do here, you know. So, um, everything worked out great, everything worked out great. But, um, I'm just, I'm enjoying my dogs now. Yeah, you know, that's that's all I'm saying. Before I felt like there was a lot of pressure on me to be a really great trainer and, um, you know, make sure that, um, I competed my dogs and always looked good on the competition field, like there was just a lot of pressure for that. And now, now I don't know if it's an age thing or if it's an experience thing or both, but I don't feel that so much anymore. Like, obviously I want to do well on the competition field. I'm not going to set foot on the competition field if I don't feel like we're going to do well, but it's not as important to me. I just I like showing up to training and I like training my dogs. Like those moments where you make progress with your dog, even here by myself training my dogs like that's exciting for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm not in a rush, I'm not in a rush.
Speaker 2:That's what it's all about. Yeah, that's what it's all about. So, all right, I've let you yap for far too long.
Speaker 1:So much yapping, so much yapping. I knew this was going to be a long one. I warned you. No, but honestly it was such a good conversation. It was great, it was an awesome conversation.
Speaker 2:Tell the people where they can find you On my ranch.
Speaker 1:Always on my ranch. Doggeniuseducationcom is my website, and on uh Instagram dog genius, dog genius training. Uh, dog genius, canine education. And then also my um, my Belgian Malinois breeding program. Uh, a lot of people follow me on that, on Instagram too. Lucin Malinois is for anybody who cares, anybody who's interested Spell that. L-o-u-c-y-n. Malinois Dog.
Speaker 2:Genius with one G D-O-G-E. I'll put the links in the show notes.
Speaker 1:It's so long. It's so long, I don't know. Maybe you're right, maybe I should make it something shorter. It's so long, I don't know. Maybe you're right, maybe I should make it something shorter.
Speaker 2:It's too late now. Maybe you should make it like happydogscom. Doggeniuscom, if you guys are in the San Diego area.
Speaker 1:And then on Facebook it's Stephanie. Lucin is my main account.
Speaker 2:It's funny because everybody thinks that's your last name. They do.
Speaker 1:It might be my last name one day. You might have to legally change it at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me Great conversation.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:And thank you all so much for listening. We'll see you next time.