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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Navigating E-Collar Training: Conditioning Phases and Best Practices for Pet Dogs
Ever wondered if you're using an e-collar correctly with your dog? Meg pulls back the curtain on this powerful training tool, revealing insights that even seasoned trainers might be missing.
Meg takes us deep into the two essential phases of e-collar conditioning—escape and avoidance—and explains why most trainers and owners get stuck in the first phase for far too long. This simple mistake creates dogs who only respond when the e-collar is activated rather than understanding commands independently. She shares practical examples from her board-and-train program, demonstrating how e-collars should function as follow-through tools rather than becoming the cue itself.
The conversation tackles the differences between sport dog training and pet dog reality. While competitive trainers might use e-collars for precision behaviors, Meg offers refreshingly honest advice about what actually works for everyday pet owners. "I didn't learn from other trainers," she explains. "I learned from dogs and owners what people are willing to do and keep up with."
Perhaps most valuably, Meg challenges the common belief that all behaviors can be trained away. Through compelling stories about dogs like Mayan and Ziv, she illustrates how genetics significantly impact what's possible through training. This realistic perspective helps owners understand when to adjust expectations versus when to implement different training approaches.
Whether you're a professional trainer looking to refine your e-collar skills or a pet owner wondering if this tool might help your challenging dog, this episode provides clear, practical guidance without judgment or dogma. Meg's balanced approach acknowledges both the power of positive reinforcement and the appropriate use of tools for accountability.
Ready to transform your understanding of e-collar training? Listen now and discover the clarity your dog needs to thrive.
Schedule your interview for the next Virtual Shadow Program here
Hello, hello and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. This week's episode is a clip from the virtual shadow program. So, if you guys don't know, I run an online program for folks who are interested in becoming dog trainers. So this is one of our group calls that we had in week two. So the program is a three-week program and in this episode we're going to chat all about e-caller training, the different types of conditioning, what I like to do with my personal dogs and also what I suggest owners do. So this is a little sneak peek, a little inside into what being a part of that virtual shadow program looks like. You know the drill Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet us back here.
Speaker 2:But I feel like I don't really use e-collar for my dog, so I guess I naturally just kind of do what Megan is doing, which is like not using e-collar as much, and you do it just as a follow-through tool yeah, and I find that people hang out in the first stage for way too long and then that is like the cue for the dog to listen, you know, or like.
Speaker 3:Then I have a dog that like wants to avoid all obedience commands because place is always paired with e-caller.
Speaker 3:So if I get a dog who I say place, and the dog's like I know what that person has done, you know, I know what that person has done, you know, I know that that person has hung out in that like that first stage of e-collar conditioning for way too long.
Speaker 3:But as soon as I see that the dog is understanding what to do when they feel the sensation, I get out of that stage like literally immediately, immediately, because it can really taint your obedience commands and especially with, like, pet owners, I will never send a dog home in that stage. Like I'm going to send the dog home, hand the e-caller to the owner and I'm going to say, hey, tell your dog what you want them to do, either through your verbal command or through your leash, and if they don't follow through on it then we're going to use our e-caller on the backend. So we're kind of it's not really a correction, but like it kind of is you know, by the time the dog goes home, like that's what we're using the e-caller for. I'm not having them layer the e-caller over things.
Speaker 2:How do you know when the dog is ready for that second phase?
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, muffin is going to pop off. So if I give the cue and there's like a bit of urgency for the dog to go and do the thing, so I'm looking to see that the dog is like oh, the stem is on, I want to turn that off. So I'm going to rush to place to turn it off.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like a signal that they really understand what you're asking. And then you go into the second phase. Yeah, and do you do any reps of the second phase before handing over to the owner, or yeah?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, for sure, that's pretty much what I'm in most of the time. So, like, right now, the the board and train dogs that I have like I'm not really layering the e-caller on anything anymore they know their obedience commands, they know what I'm asking of them if I like yesterday I had Ziv the Rhodesian oh my gosh, he was so bad. Yesterday I had him on uh, flexi and I was like recalling him and he was like you know, like literally looks back at me and is like, yeah, whatever. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give you a second and if you don't come back to me like high level stim, so I do high level stim and he's like my bad, and he like comes back.
Speaker 3:You know, and I feel like that's what most owners and dogs need is like that accountability, because people almost think that their dogs are dumb and that they don't know the things, but I feel like they do. They're just also used to like doing it on their terms. Right, like I'll recall it if it is like beneficial to me, but like if it's not, then I'm not really going to, you know. And so like, as trainers, our job is to kind of get the reps of like hey, I'm gonna give you a chance to do the thing. But if you don't do the thing it's gonna be a little bit uncomfy for you, and then you'll find that you don't have to use the e-collar as much yeah were you gonna say something, jeff?
Speaker 5:yeah, I'm sorry a lot of thoughts so one like that brings me to like. When I have a client say like, oh, my dog is super stubborn, like I, I hate that because it's just, you just haven't held your dog accountable. It's not that they're stubborn Like, okay, some dogs are stubborn, but a lot of the times I'm like, okay, let me see how you work them, and they're just, they're not holding them accountable. The other thing was I use his on my personal dog. I don't typically do this with a dog. I'm training, but use the eco a lot to tighten up stuff. So if I'm doing a super active session and he's a touch out of his focused heel or something like that, I'm using it to really tighten it up. Um, I'm kind of moving away from the leash and prong in in certain scenarios. Is that, do you just not do that?
Speaker 3:no, I do okay, okay but think of it as like you're. That's like holding the dog accountable, but to like a higher level, you know okay, okay, like think about like your. Your focused heel is like this right. So like, if you're like this, tap, tap, tap, tap until your head is there.
Speaker 5:That's how I'm using it. It's just full negative. Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I mean that's like you're still giving your dog an opportunity to do the thing that you want them to do, you know? So, like e-collar is going on, because they're not in the exact position that we want but it's not a corrective level right, and that's kind of what I'm saying okay, okay uh, it's, it is a correction, but like it's kind of not, it's not, like I'm always like hitting the dog at a high level, you know yeah yeah it's just the e-collar tapping goes on after I've directed them on what I want them to do and if they either don't go into it fast enough or they don't do it at all, like e-collar is going to go on.
Speaker 3:For like ziv that was a correction because he has really just been I took him out on a flexi yesterday and he hit the end of the flexi so hard I literally ripped my shoulder out and I like skid across like gravel and I was like okay, like we are not going to do that anymore, you know. So like that needs to be a high level correction, whereas like with Mayan, if I'm calling him into heel, he'll be out of position and I'll say heel and he'll take his sweet time. So I'm going to go tap, tap, tap, tap, tap until he comes into heal, but that's not going to be a high level correction. That's kind of what you're talking about of like OK, I want that. I'm kind of like cleaning up my commands, right, so that clarity, and like stim goes on until you move into that position that I want you to. With pets, we're just not holding them to that high of a standard.
Speaker 5:Okay, okay, I see what you're saying, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so like when I train with like Shane and Oscar for sporty stuff, that's how they're using their e-collar, but they're using it at probably a much higher level than like you are, Michael Ellis and Forrest.
Speaker 5:Mickey are much softer on their dogs than like a lot of the sport people are. I attended a michael ellis seminar and he was going over the way he uses his e-collar and that's kind of where I pulled a lot of that type of situation from. It's kind of it's above his conditioning level but it's not corrective by any means. If anything, it kind of gets in that amped up to use as a gas pedal. So if it's like a down in motion, I don't want those couple steps getting into that down. I needed that instantaneous. You go into that down the second you hear that and there's no couple steps going into that. That's kind of an example of how I'm using that but that's very sporty okay, I don't use it with pet dogs.
Speaker 5:If I'm training a client, we're working with an e-caller, I go the escape avoidance route because it's just not necessary to do that. But that's okay to use it that way, I guess, is what I'm saying yes, yes, yes okay, okay, okay and like I'll use it with minka as well.
Speaker 3:So like the e-caller pushes her head up into that position, you know. So like if I say minka opa, and she's like kind of like taking her sweet ass time, it's like okay, tap, tap, tap, and she's like, oh, shoot, and whips into the position you know and it also adds a lot of clarity to the dogs, especially like the higher drive dogs, because that stem goes off when they're in the right position. So they're like OK, this is, this is what he wants. It's very, very clear.
Speaker 6:OK.
Speaker 4:You know, for stuff that you're talking about, like cleaning up obedience commands. If we wanted to get more into that, because that's something I would like to do, but because, like, he knows basic obedience, he knows that stuff, but cleaning it up right, I can use food to like clean it up, but a lot of that stuff you're explaining would that be more like sporty stuff, considered like if I were to go in shane's community? Is that how he uses e-collar stuff, more to like clean up or uh, I it's a little different, I think.
Speaker 3:So I have learned like pretty much everything as far as, like, my marker words and my e-collar conditioning, from michael ellis, um, and I think he's kind of like the standard for that, because he's very much like balanced, like truly balanced in that like, yeah, he's almost force free, but he uses tools, you know.
Speaker 4:So he's very fair with the dogs, um, but you have to keep in mind that they are not really training pets right that's like a whole other thing, so I'm not really talking about like for I'm talking about personal at that point yeah but I think you should like it's.
Speaker 3:It will make you a much better dog trainer, because you have to be so precise and so timely in like everything that you do, and when you're doing training sessions with like your dog, it's all about like speed and precision, whereas with pets we're typically doing behavioral mod and so it's not that it's like okay, how can I hold you accountable, how can I, you know, make sure that there's not a lot of conflict here, that sort of stuff um, what with the?
Speaker 5:how do you feel about ivan balabanov's method on using the collar? Because I've seen dogs that have done it that way and I'm like, okay, there's not severe fallout there, like they're able to achieve certain things the same way. I just feel like you're eliminating the way it can be used then, if you're only using it that way, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yes. So I think that that is fine with sporty people or dog trainers, but for OK, so to let you, if you guys don't know how he. Sorry, sorry, he doesn't do low level e-collar conditioning, so his thing is like it's always corrective. It's always like I don't want to condition the dog to a low level because then I'm going to need a higher level later on. Right, that's kind of his thing.
Speaker 5:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It jumps straight to the. If I'm eventually going to use it at a higher level, I'm just going to start at that higher level because it's always going to be an uncomfortable feeling for the dog, so I'm not going to let it be a fun feeling ever.
Speaker 3:So his analogy for that is like like, if you put your hand on a stove that's heating up, you're gonna leave your hands there for much longer at a higher temperature, whereas if you touch a stove that is already hot, you're gonna immediately be like rip your hand away and it might not even be as hot as it you can tolerate. You know, but that kind of like mentality of does low level e-collar conditioning prep the dog to tolerate higher levels, versus am I able to correct the dog at a lower level if I don't condition them to it? Um, personally I feel like that's kind of what I do with my dogs, but I don't like that for owners because I think it is much easier to cause confusion and mess the dog up. I think if you know what you're doing and you have really good timing and you are also very selective about what you're using the e-caller for so very selective about what you're using the e-collar for but what would happen if you give an owner an e-collar and you say, okay, we're just going to use it for corrections, they're going to use it on everything. And so his thing is you can use it as just a corrector and not condition it, but you have to pick one thing at a time. You cannot just go and like correct the dog for anything that they're doing bad, because they're going to be very confused and they're going to be like what the heck is this? I don't know what to do because every time I do something I get corrected for it. So like, for example, let's say I have a client who their dog is a counter surfer and they're not really going to use the e-caller for anything.
Speaker 3:I will put an e-collar on that dog and high level correct that dog when their paws jump up on the counter. But I'm not going to correct the dog for jumping on the counter and jumping up on me and running out the door. That's going to create a lot of confusion for the dog. So there are certain moments where I won't condition the e-collar. I'm just going to use it as like. I want this to be aversive or like if I have a dog that's like eating poop, you know, I can put an e-collar on the dog and correct it because I want the correction to be associated with like that action. I don't necessarily want that sensation to be associated with me, which is what we're doing when we're doing e-collar conditioning.
Speaker 3:I kind of I don't do a lot of conditioning personally with my dogs. I have a lot of clarity with my dogs. My dogs know their commands very well, they know their marker words very well, they know, like, my expectations, and so I am able to use the e-caller just in moments, like you know, you're out of position, so I'm going to tap on it. I don't really have to do a lot of conditioning because I have that clarity, whereas I feel like when we're working with owners, the dog is already just doesn't know what's going on. There's no clarity in the owner's communication, and so everything that we're doing is like creating clarity in our languages, and one of those languages is e-caller. So I want to make sure that the dog very much knows like, hey, this is the e-caller, it's coming from me, this is how we turn it off. It's not a bad thing, you know.
Speaker 3:And then, something that I kind of noticed when I was watching your guys' videos with our marker words it's super important that whenever we go into our sessions, we kind of have an idea of, like what we're working on and that will dictate the exact behavior that we are marking. So, and sometimes we're marking like a little bit too late. So, like, let's say, in the videos where we're telling our dog to go to place, they go to place and we're kind of pausing, yes, and then we'll shuffle backwards. So we're almost using our yes where we would use our release command, whereas I have to think am I, what am I teaching in this session? Am I teaching the dog to go to place? Okay, so as soon as they complete that, which is all four paws on the place, caught, yes, then they shoot off.
Speaker 3:You know, making sure that our marker word is not just like releasing the behavior, it's releasing the behavior that we want to reinforce. So being really timely and understanding, like what exactly it is that we're marking. And I know, tricia, in your videos you talked a lot about using your markers as counter conditioning, which I love, and I think everybody should go and watch her videos because we can use our yes as a positive disruptor. So in some of the videos I'll have you guys watch tomorrow, like our reactivity videos, I can use a pop on the prong to redirect the dog back to me. But if we have a really strong marker word, we can also use our marker words to redirect the dog back to us. But with that I need a very clear understanding of my marker word, and that's why I'm so big on. Yes means come back to me and get your reward.
Speaker 3:Because if we're like, if the dog is, let's say, staring at a trigger, and we're just saying yes and then paying in position while they're still staring at the trigger, it's not really disrupting, like yes, they are no longer barking or they're not being reactive, but I really want them to disengage from that, you know. So having a very strong marker word allows us to successfully counter condition, you know. So, like in moments like that, let's say the dog is like fixating, I could use my yes, they come back to me, get a reward, and then I could go into like walking drills, so the dog is walking in heel, I could say good, and then I can pay in position, you know. But I don't necessarily want to say yes and just like pay the dog in position, because you can see they're kind of like well, I don't really know what I did, you know. So I want yes to always mean like come back to me, get that reward, because we're going to be able to redirect the dogs in those moments.
Speaker 2:I think the reason why I never transitioned or one of the reasons why I never was super like with my marker words, I wasn't super picky. I think it's because I also use my body when it comes to the direction that I want them to go, which is like when I say Y-E-S, I kind of do a fade back so that the dog is encouraged to look away from the trigger. Yes, I kind of do a fade back so that the dog is encouraged to look away from the trigger. Would you do you feel like that is kind of similar to what you're trying to say as far as, like, making sure that the dog is just not fixating, you're not paying as they are looking, kind of thing?
Speaker 3:yeah, for sure, and that's like why our yes is paired with us shuffling backwards a lot of times. That's like fair enough.
Speaker 6:Using the leash is what I feel like. If there's a trigger, all yes. If they're not, if they are not gonna take the food and come back to me, I'm, then I'm doing leash work and I'm not, like you know, paying attention, doing the yes anymore. Um, and theoretically, I don't know, that's like generally how I it's like yes, if that doesn't work, go try and pull them backwards with leash pressure. If not, then go and take them, scoop them up.
Speaker 3:And with that too, like let's say, I do say yes, and the dog doesn't come back to me. I know my marker word probably isn't conditioned well enough, you know. So I'll be like, okay, we're going to go back to that and I'm not going to use it to disrupt reactivity or you know, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Do you always find that you can use the YAS marker for reactivity? Is that like your go-to?
Speaker 3:No, I mostly use like directional changes, tapping on my e-caller, like, let's say, the dog I'm walking, walking walking dog, gets out in front of me and I know that they're checked out, they're not tuned in to where I'm at. I dip back behind them, tap, tap, tap. They're like oh, got to go back to her, because that's kind of what I have conditioned the e-caller to be is like tap, tap, tap, move with the leash, move with me, turn that tapping off. And the reason being not a lot of dogs that I work with are super food motivated or super like play motivated, and so I'm not able to create this like really strong association to a marker. And so what am I left with? Turning pressure off, like negative reinforcement, you know.
Speaker 3:So I think, like in an ideal world I have a you know million days with a dog and I can get them working for all of their meals and then I can build up a really strong, you know, yes, and they come running back to me to work with their food. But you know, even Mayan and Ziv, like they have bowls in their crate right now that they are not eating and they'll take food in a training session, but they're like I don't really care. You know it's not a true reward, whereas I've raised my dogs a certain way and so when I say yes, they're like oh my gosh, and they like come back to me like crazy. You know little kids, and so, like with I posted the video of Ziv like freaking out over the bicycle and I got like so much, so much heat for that video.
Speaker 3:But he does not take food in those moments, you know. So an ideal situation. Or he doesn't take food for me pretty much at all in our training session. So, you know, I in an ideal world, in a perfect world, I can have him in a room and build up that yes, and use it to disrupt his fear to bicycles or you know, whatever it may be. But that was a very real life moment and we were just going for a walk. Tomo rolled up on the bike and he was like bye, I'm fucking gone. We didn't know that he was scared of bikes.
Speaker 4:He's ready to run into this, you know so it's the big ones that turn into the scared horse, I feel like it's always rhodesians, like everybody's.
Speaker 3:Like oh, they're bred to like hunt lions. And I'm like in what, in what world? Like no, yeah, so it's like, is that ideal? You know, in in our dog training textbooks? Is that how we work a dog through fearful moments? No, but I did not raise this dog. Uh, if I raised him he wouldn't get to this point. You know, he would take food from me, he would be food driven. He would, you know, want to work for me. But I have him for three weeks and we have to walk down the street. You know you cannot drag us into the street. You cannot hit the end of a flexi and like take me off the edge of a cliff, you know.
Speaker 3:So what's best is not always what's best in your situation as the dog trainer and that's kind of your guys' job is, you have all of these skills. We have our, you know, yes, as a disruptor. We have our leash pressure, we have our body language. It's kind of figuring out like what is best for that dog in what moment, and also what's best for the owner too. You know, if I want to train a dog with an e-collar, but I know the owner is just like not going to use an e-collar, then that's not what's best. So I'm going to train that dog in a slip lead, because I know that's what the owner is going to use what if you come across?
Speaker 4:do you ever come across dogs that you're just like you can only get them to a certain point on a slip lead or a prong before you're just like? They have such crazy prey drive like I have this client that has a german short-haired pointer and like I've I've worked with a lot, but they have this one has the craziest prey drive. I mean there can just be a leaf blowing on the ground and like it's going to chase and like the only thing that's really going to get them to the point that they want to be is with an e-collar, because like he can walk in a structured walk. But if something's moving, does that happen, though? Where you come across people, do you just give them realistic expectations of like?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, for sure. And I also like give them the trade-offs. I'm like, hey, you want a perfect walk. You are not going to get that unless you're willing to do this. And if you're not willing to do that, then you need to drop your expectations of having this perfect walk. You know, um, but I'm very real with people in that and also the longer that I've trained dogs, the more I realize we really do not have as much control over their behavior as we think that we do. Like so much of it is genetics, you know, yeah, like um Mayan, I've had him for a long time now. I've had him for five weeks and he I have a lot of conflict with him in downs and I don't know why. I think it's just kind of like a control thing. Like being in a down in an open space is a very vulnerable position for dogs.
Speaker 3:Kind of yeah, he's just like no, yeah, and he doesn't, he does not want to go into it down and his like what he does is he'll jump up on me and grab me, like he wraps his arms around me and has like open mouth.
Speaker 3:Like I'm not gonna bite you, but I might, and I'm like okay and it happened to me twice with him and it was like really scary because like I don't want to move fast, you know, I don't want to like correct you in that moment, I just want to be like okay, please like get off of me. But he's like grabbing me really tight, um, and I like made a story about it and his owner was like was that my end? And I was like of course it was my end. Um, and she was like yeah, he did that to me. And I was like what were you doing? When he did that? And she's like I asked him to go into a down and I was honestly I was like oh, thank god, you know, because I thought it was me. I was like what have I done that I created so much conflict in the down that like you are now going into this like possession on me to kind of like control the situation. So I don't think that that's. I think that Mayan will always try to do that, you know, and I think I can work through it as much as possible, but I think, when it comes down to it, if he is with somebody who he knows he can do that with, he's gonna do that with, regardless of how long I train him, you know. So then our training becomes hey, in these situations, either just don't put him in a down and avoid that situation entirely, or be ready to pull him off of you and, e-collar, stem him off of you until he's away from you, you know. So I don't know.
Speaker 3:Interesting scenario though yeah, I've never. I've never had a dog do that to me. I've had, like I've worked like sporty dogs who you know, they like, you know people like the dogs that will like wrap their arms around the decoy, but I've never had a pet dog do that to me and I was like oh my gosh, this is horrible. I hate this. It's honestly really scary, but like it sucks because I don't think that he's ever going to change and his owner is like what if I just rehome him?
Speaker 3:And I'm like nobody wants is like what if I just rehome him? And I'm like nobody wants, nobody wants your problem dog, you know, and he's bitten the daughter before, so he has a bite history and I'm like I don't think that it's on. I don't think that it's fair for you to rehome a dog with a bite history, because if he goes to somebody who's not able to manage his behaviors, then you're like setting somebody up for a dangerous situation, you know. So it's important to be honest with clients with that and um. I used to be very much one of those trainers that's like it's the owner's fault, like you did this, like this is all your fault, like it's your lack of abilities or handling, but it it is just not true at all. I think so much of it is genetics and it's kind of our job as dog trainers and owners to recognize what our dog is, what they need and train them enough to be able to safely manage them any other questions.
Speaker 6:I yeah, I do have a question, the. I guess this goes along with genetics a little bit. Like I was, I have mostly huskies and a retriever husky and it it's really hard for me to try and do the active stuff with them because like that's not what gets them going. Like I play with my retriever every day and she gets amped. But then I like start doing that kind of the try and get her to follow me and she's like what are you doing? Like I just want to chase the ball. My other huskies just want to pull a sled or pull me on my bike or my skis or whatever. So like do I need like I have good relationship with all of them anyway it's I like want to be able to do that. But is that realistic for every dog to be able to get them to like do the sportier things and have that kind of amped up mindset?
Speaker 3:no, definitely not. Um, we always want to kind of like meet the dog where they're at Right and like we don't decide what's rewarding to the dog. So if they don't enjoy those sorts of training sessions, then we need to find, like what they enjoy. But, like with your retriever, lucy was kind of the same way. She was like I don't care, like just throw the ball, just throw the ball, just throw the ball, that's literally it. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna create some impulse control around, like me throwing the ball, you know, so I can like put her in a down, throw the ball, go. You know, like little things like that of like, okay, you like chasing the ball, I'm gonna use that as the reward.
Speaker 3:Then, um, huskies, no, good luck, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, they're tough because, like what's rewarding to a husky? The environment, you know. So the huskies that I've trained, most owners just want a loose lead walk, like that's literally what most people want. And so how I reward a husky for a loose lead walk is hey, heal with me for a couple blocks and then I'll release you and you can run and do whatever you want, as long as you can come back into heal. I'm gonna set you free and do what you want, because they don't care about the food, you know, and it's kind of the same.
Speaker 6:We care about food, but not enough to like watch, follow me, move back and forth a bunch of times like they're like what the heck are you?
Speaker 7:doing, yeah, um yeah, just do what's rewarding to them you know, okay, yeah so if you have a dog that is amped up and like, ready to work and fully engaged, do you need to do that active session with them or you could skip that.
Speaker 3:I would say still do the active session, but like, were you watching the lives where we were training all of our dogs? Yeah, okay. So it would be like the difference between a session with like Hawk versus a session with Minka. Like Minka, I'm getting her barking at me like multiple times in that training session, because every time she starts to get a little flat and a little like, oh, I'm going to get her barking Cause I want to jack her up a little bit, whereas, like with Hawk, if we did that to Hawk you would be horrible and probably like fighting all over toma. So your session can still be like an active session, but we're focused on like coming to the position calmly, you know so like slowing them down, exactly, exactly. So when I, when I say active sessions, I'm not like, yes, I do want them to be like more fast paced and shorter and that sort of stuff, but you're still kind of catering it to what the dog needs, you know. So, like with with Mayan, like it's about getting him like jacked up in those sessions with Ziv. I do not need Ziv jacked up. He is jacked up all the time. So those active sessions that I'm doing with him is like Ziv down. Good, lots of good, not a lot of. Yes, a lot of rewarding in position, a lot of calmly moving into him, using a calmer voice, getting him jacked up, is our issue. Boarding in position, a lot of calmly moving into him, using a calmer voice, like getting him jacked up, is our issue.
Speaker 3:But with that being said, it is important to learn how to like cap our dogs when they are in that high arousal state, because they're going to get to that point, high arousal state because they're going to get to that point. So do we have control over them when they're in this high drive, high arousal state? We have to practice that. They're not always going to be, you know, perfectly calm and perfectly neutral. So, like today, my session with Ziv um, I had him out on a flexi, I let him get his like crazies out and then I call him into a down and he's like I don't want to go into a down and he like runs over and he like starts like mouthing my hand, e-collar, stim, goes on, ziv down stays on until he goes into a down, and then he goes into a down, you know, and then I go into like more slower obedience. So I'm still kind of giving him an opportunity to like get his crazies out a little bit, and then I'm gonna cap it okay.
Speaker 7:So we can also use it to practice during, like those high intense times for the dog, as well as also slowing them down. If they are okay, and if they are a dog that's more mellow and not super into it, then we're just basically using it to kind of get them excited and locked in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if I have like a really timid dog, those active sessions, like that's another value of like a strong yes is I can use it to be built speed and motivation to like do something with me, whereas, like, if everything is kind of slow and boring in position, I'm never building that dog up, you know, and I I don't. I don't want my dogs to be like little little robots, like if you. So if you guys saw my dogs, every time I meet a dog trainer they're like your dogs are crazy and I'm like, I know, but I like them like that. You know, I like them to be a little bit wild but I can always reel them in and if it ever gets to the point where, like, let's say, lucy, my red golden, like she's like you know, fuck you, I'm gonna do whatever I want and I'm okay, we're gonna start reeling it in and I'm gonna kind of go back into boot camp mode a little bit, you know. So I let my dogs do whatever they want, as long as I can get them to stop doing something or do the opposite. So you can jump up on me as long as I can tell you to get down, you can get on the couch. As long as I can tell you to get down, you can be off leash as long as you can recall back to me and go into heel. But if at any point you show me that you're not willing to listen to me or do those things, okay, I'm going to limit your freedom again.
Speaker 3:And so, as dog trainers that's kind of the stage that we're in with a lot of the dogs is like the dogs are coming to us with problems. You know, like Zev's owner is like this tiny girl and she's like I want to take him everywhere. Okay, well, he's scared of literally everything. He blows off a prong collar, he blows off an e collar, like she came to me with an e collar and she's like I hit him at a hundred and like he does not care. But it's because he's up here all the time, you know. So I'm like, okay, we have to dial him in a little bit. You know you're not going to get all of the privileges that my dogs get, because you can't handle it. You know you haven't been making great decisions up until this point. So I'm going to be really strict with you. That's kind of my job. And then, once you're good, then I'm going to give you more freedom. So we're kind of like in, that's our role, which kind of sucks, you know, but somebody who's got to do it.
Speaker 4:you know yeah, I know I've always liked that about you compared to other dog trainers is you give your dogs like. You let your dogs be dogs, and I think that's super important that a lot of people forget to like let their dogs be dogs but still hold them accountable. Like I think there's a happy medium there. I don't think our dogs have to be robots, but you know, they also don't need to be like crazy little gremlins either.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Like my dogs can chill in a crate. They're not gonna like throw a temper tantrum in the crate if I do have to create them for a long time and you know stuff like that. And I think that's kind of like the goal is we want our dogs to be like well balanced and, you know, have feelings and let them get those big feelings out. But also, like I want to be able to walk you to a coffee shop and you not be jumping up on everybody and, you know, being a total menace. I think that's kind of everybody's goal. Most pet owners just want to be able to like put their dog in a down out in public or, you know, walk nicely down the street. That's going to be like a majority of what we do as dog trainers.
Speaker 3:Brenda, you have very, very good leash handling, thank you. So if you guys haven't already, go watch brenda's videos um, one thing that you are very good at is like the pressure on, pressure off. You're very clear in your body language and you're very clear in like you holding the leash when that pressure goes on. So sometimes, like when we're doing walking drills, we're just kind of going through the motions. We're not actually like tuning into the dog, but really pay attention to like what that leash feels like and how much pressure the dog is putting on the leash. Like when we're doing that directional turn you know we're kind of moving with the dog a little bit they hit the leash. Come back to us. You know we're not just like walking, turning the dog like hits the leash and is kind of being yanked around, yeah, like hits the leash and is kind of being yanked around, yeah, so you do a really good job of like being tuned into the dog through the leash.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think my handling skills I do take pride in that. I think what's going to be beneficial for me is to continue to watch your videos on how you explain everything, Cause if the owners can see me but I can't actually explain so it computes in their head, it's not really going do much.
Speaker 3:So yeah and um, go watch the private lessons that I do, yeah yeah yeah, with people, because I pretty much start like every single lesson the exact same. It's like they take the dog out. We're talking about the dog, okay, let's go for a walk, let's see how the dog out. We're talking about the dog. Okay, let's go for a walk, let's see how the dog does on the walk. And then I have them do directional changes and the cues that I give them. I have gotten good at cuing people because I was a personal trainer movements down into very like easy to follow steps. So I'll tell people plant your left foot, we're going to turn over your right shoulder, your dog's going to follow you on the left hand side. You know, really like breaking down those basic movements instead of just being like all right, go ahead and turn. You know turning is so much more than turning, it really is like a pivot. So how can we break those steps down into something that you know people are able to very clearly do? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, that's very helpful. Yeah, so like, if you ever go to like fitness classes or Pilates, instructors are really good at this because, you know, or like yoga, like our heads are down, are down right, so we're not always like looking at the instructor. They're very, very good at like cuing. So I would encourage everybody to like go to a fitness class like that because it's the same, it's literally the same and yeah, that's very true. When you're working with clients, you have to be able to cue them on specific body parts and specific movements. Yeah, jeff, you have very good sporty obedience when you are trying to demonstrate the loose lead walking drills and your dog is just in a focused heel the whole time.
Speaker 5:He has an everyday heel. I think he was pretty confused on what the hell I was doing, though this is a training session.
Speaker 3:What are you talking about?
Speaker 5:yeah, and I try to keep him really low key. I don't activate him and because he's just ready, unless, like, I save that for like, like when he's on a back tie and I need that like 100 intensity, like where it's like you can go, go, go. But a lot of times I'll throttle that during just a normal session where kind of like what you talked about earlier, like I'll walk him to the field and then I'll unleash him, I'll say break and then immediately put up and do it down. He's like what the hell? Um, so I'll play with that a lot. But I think there he was. Just he was incredibly confused, um, but um, yeah, he did, did, okay.
Speaker 3:I didn't love it, but but you have very, very good clarity with your dog, and I think it goes back to like the clarity in your marker words and your timing. You have very good timing with everything, and so your dogs know like exactly what to do and exactly what you're asking of them. Okay, you know. So that's kind of like everything, and it's gonna come with lots of practice. Like I still am not the best, you know, I'll record my training sessions and I'll go back and watch them and be like what the heck Like why did I say that then? But the only way that you're going to get better at it is training dogs and recording yourself and watching it back and realizing all of the mistakes that you make because you're going to make mistakes all of the mistakes that you make because you're going to make mistakes. For all of you guys, is this kind of like the first time that you've really had?
Speaker 4:to like break your training down and watch it back For sure. Yeah, it was definitely funny, like I and a lot of my training that I had learned previously was very different to how you approach a lot of things. So it's testing like what I know versus like, and I don't even agree with a lot of the stuff that I do know. That's why I like a lot of the stuff that you do Like. When I start doing more pet training, that's the stuff I'm going to implement, not the stuff, the prior knowledge that I've learned, that I know like I don't love.
Speaker 3:but you know, know, like? Who did you learn from?
Speaker 4:so what got me into stuff was my first dog, who's reactive and just watching a ton of videos, right, and everyone approaches reactivity a little bit different. So that's kind of what got me into dog training a little bit more was my first dog and then my second dog. I was like, okay, I need to do this differently, right. So I worked with a trainer here literally the worst experience ever. I can't remember his name, he was so bad. But then it got me into even more education, right. Then I was like, okay, now I want to learn what to do, what not to do, because I knew that that was terrible. I didn't know what that was. I was like that was so bad, that was terrible. I didn't know what that was, that was so bad.
Speaker 4:And then I did the program over at Sit Me Sit with my second dog and I like a lot of how they approach their stuff, but they don't do any food rewards like at all. So I never was super big into food rewards, more toys or just positive like praise and stuff like that, which worked really good with my second dog. But how they approach the e-caller is they give you a sport dog, right, worked really well with this dog would not have worked. My first dog like she would have totally fallen out with that immediately, um, because she's just like so scared, right, so I don't know. It worked good for him, but that's just like still not how I would approach pet training. Probably with most dogs I'd say it would work. With some dogs. It worked with my second dog and he was great out of that and I've definitely been able to take that and like build on that. But I would say for most people it's probably not the best approach sport dogs are hot.
Speaker 4:Those are hot e-collars which works really good for my bully mix because he's a bully mix and he blows through it on like a four and a five when we're like when I'm doing recall and he's chasing something or doing something. So when we were doing training with him, like he was working kind of halfway through on a sport dog anyway because he loved other dogs around like he was just always very hot in general. So when I did switch over to a mini educator, like I was working on so high on that that I just went back to the sport dog because he feels that it works, but my other dogs no.
Speaker 3:Like I would never put that on yeah, yeah, when I have a dog that like doesn't listen to a mini educator or even is like blowing through like a boss, which is like the next step of like you gotta get a sport dog, because those and also like this stem is different, it's much sharper, it feels different, like when you're holding it, like it's definitely like sharper.
Speaker 3:It doesn't not like it hurts, but it's definitely like it feels different, like it's like oh hey, yeah, like the, the mini educator is very much like a TENS unit, like it's just like feels like a vibration, whereas the, the sport dog, is like pretty sharp.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but some dogs need that. And like I got a lot of people I made like a post or something about like e-collar, and I got a lot of people who were like, yeah, my dog is like blowing through the e-collar, but I'm like scared to dial up, you know. And some trainers will say like don't dial up above a certain level. But every single dog is different, you know, and like every e-collar is different. So you really can't give like a blanket, like oh, stick at this, stick with this level, don't, don't dial up above this. And it kind of like scares people, you know, and they'll have dogs like yours. That's like you're at a high level on the sport dog and dogs like, okay, I guess I'll come back.
Speaker 4:I guess I throw that on him Right, um, but it definitely takes something like that for him, and I do really feel like all dogs are going to be a little bit different. I feel like most dogs would probably respond to a mini educator. Now, I just didn't have that knowledge prior to that as much when I went into with him. So it worked, it was successful, but I could definitely see it not working as well with some people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or even like Ziv, like it's funny because his working level is like pretty low, but when he's in drive like a hundred on the e-collar right there, you know, like he hit the end of that flexi and I'm like, oh please, something, nothing, literally nothing, just like blew right through it. So I'm gonna get him like a bigger e-collar for those moments like even though 90% of the time he's like at a 20 on the mini educator, it's like yeah, but when he really wants to chase after something or like run to somebody, like he does not care about that hundred, you know.
Speaker 4:So you need it for like emergency moments like that too yeah, like I plan to use the mini educator more with my bully mix to try and clean up stuff like what I was talking about earlier, because I can use the lower level stim. But if we're doing anything else out in the real world like, no, the other colors Otherwise that the educator is not going to hold him accountable enough.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure Um, you guys got any other questions. Are we feeling pretty good about everything?
Speaker 5:so that was the last video the the active session we did with the food rewards I'm gonna have you guys submit.
Speaker 5:Um, if you want to submit e-caller, you can also submit e-caller, but I know not everybody has a dog that's on e-caller, so I didn't want to make people do that do you want us doing like hand up, because I also have a finger kick for one of my e-callers that I use with him, so it's kind of like difficult, like you can't see every time I'm hitting it too. Like do you want hand up to?
Speaker 3:show. Just do hand up here, or you can do like a finger up or something okay just like tell us, flip us off.
Speaker 7:Yeah, just tell us before because I put it on the middle finger too, so it wouldn't look great, okay for the e-collar video say, if our dog's already passed like, uh, the like in the conditioning phase, like, can we not show that then? Because I wouldn't want to, I don't know I guess like what do you? Want to see in the video for that total like whatever you want.
Speaker 7:Clarity on okay if we're looking at how it looks like we need timing down, just okay, yeah. And then I'm also. I still need to post my working. I know I'm behind on that one, but I need to do that this week.
Speaker 3:I I know like a couple people reach out to me and they're like I'm like it's okay, it's okay, I promise you can. You can take your time. Um, yeah, that's why I didn't like post anything today. I wanted everybody to kind of get caught. That's why I didn't like post anything today. I wanted everybody to kind of get caught up on stuff and I didn't want anybody to get too far behind. Did you all fill out the e-caller quiz?
Speaker 4:I did. Are we going to get results back for that? Because now I'm just curious, now I want to know. I had a lot of like written questions. I was like oh, oh wow. This is more like you said. There was going to be a quiz, there was going to be like a little multiple choice, and you had full on scenarios.
Speaker 5:I was like, oh, wow pull it up yeah, I started it and then I was like oh shit, I this is not a DCD.
Speaker 4:I don't have time for this right now. I was like, oh yeah, I'll just go through this really quick, and I was like I don't have time for this right now.
Speaker 2:I wanted to get you guys thinking.
Speaker 4:No, I loved it, but now I just kind of want to know if you have like a finished one of those like you could send us or like you know you already filled out the quiz or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can go over it right now though. Okay, cool, all right. So we already kind of went over the two stages of e-collar conditioning escape and avoidance. Escape is when we're teaching the dog how to turn the e-collar off. So anytime we're teaching a new language, um, that language is always going to go first. So, for example, when we're teaching a sit, we don't just start saying sit right, we're typically going to teach the movement first and then we'll say sit, give the dog a moment, let them do the sit. If they don't, we'll give them extra guidance, you know. So the thing that we're teaching them in that moment is the verbal. So it's the same thing with our e-caller.
Speaker 3:So in that first stage the e-caller can either go on just slightly before or at the same time as our cue. So it's the thing that goes first. The cue tells them how to turn it off. The cue could either be our verbal command or our leash pressure. So, like when I'm kind of starting with everything, it's like the dog is out in front of me tap, tap, tap. As I move backwards, the dog's like oh, what is that? They look back to me. Yes, they come back. So e-caller tapping goes off, based on you following that cue, whether it's verbal or leash pressure, right. So that's our first stage. So that's escape. Avoidance is e-collar, goes on the back end, right. So I tell you, heal. You don't heal, then I'm going to tap, tap, tap or press and hold. I've been using more tapping recently. I feel like it does better just uh, tap, tap, tap, tap until the dog goes into the position.
Speaker 5:We stop tapping once they're there I use mine as kind of like morris code, almost like I keep it really unpredictable with him to really like like tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, like I kind of like to keep him super I'm finding I'm my dog, specifically it's, it's keeping him really engaged with it.
Speaker 3:It's like a reminder, reminder, reminder um um, I would avoid like ramping it up. Sometimes people do that they'll be like tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap and then yeah, no you'll get dogs that are like you know, and it kind of like jacks them up even more. But I like I like the kind of like random okay, okay um, okay, working level.
Speaker 3:So our working level is just the lowest level the dog feels a sensation at. This is going to change based on our environment, the state of drive that that dog is in, right. So when you're first working with a dog on an e-caller, I personally would find your working level at the start of every session. Eventually you're going to get to the point where you know what level you need to be at, based on where the dog is at and like the environment you know. But don't be afraid to play around with the levels. So sometimes I'll be at like too high of a level and the dog's like, whoa, I'm like, okay, I'm going to dial back down, and then they don't feel it. So then I need to find a level in between. But you'll get more comfortable with your e-caller just as you use it more and you'll just you don't even have to look at the levels, you'll just kind of like dial up as you need to, okay, during the first stage of e-caller conditioning.
Speaker 3:When does the e-caller sensation go on Before command based on that's what I put, but I put at the same time um, so in the videos I say before the command but it's not the end of the world if you do it at the same time. I just I want the dog to like, really feel the sensation, because sometimes if I have a very obedient dog, they're just following through with the obedience. They don't necessarily feel the sensation and understand how they're turning it off?
Speaker 7:Okay, is it just like a minute before, like a hot second before you just hit it and then saying the command Like a second pause?
Speaker 3:not a big pause, okay, just a second before. They're like oh, listen to me, follow through. Okay, well, think of, like the e-caller is kind of like grabbing their attention. They're like, oh, that feeling went on. What do I do when I feel, oh, she gave me a cue, I'm going to listen to the cue. Oh, it turns off when I do the thing.
Speaker 6:Make sense.
Speaker 5:Like when I was doing it with my dog and conditioning him when he was a puppy, that second before again, he's very high drive. But that second before I said his place command, when the E-collar went on, he started running to his place and that's where I'm like, oh shit, okay, he's starting to pick up on the conditioning part of this. He knows this game. So that half second second before I said the command was enough for him to be like yep, I'm going there, which is something I typically look for when I'm like okay, the dog's really starting to pick up on this in a positive way.
Speaker 3:Yes, so that means they're like ready to just be in that second stage.
Speaker 5:Yep, okay.
Speaker 3:You just got a dog in for training that has been previously trained and e-collar conditioned. With another trainer you go to condition the dog in the first stage of your e-collar training by layering the e-collar over place instead of the dog going to place to turn the e-collar off. It refuses to go on place. What do you think has happened and how would you remedy this?
Speaker 2:I, I think I put there wasn't enough clarity or follow-through, um, and maybe the timing of e-caller was off, okay yeah, I just put I can't remember, um, but basically just like a bad association right.
Speaker 4:Like they're almost getting like corrected for going on to place. They're like it's being used too much with their obedience command, so like maybe start over, like maybe take the e-collar off, like get rid of that bad association with like going to place, with like the e-collar hitting maybe too hot or yeah I've seen they spent too much time in the conditioning phase and or, like we talked about the ivan bell banoff method, only using it for correction.
Speaker 3:So the dog thought they did something wrong in that situation, so they're just avoiding it I mostly I mostly see this with a dog that the person is always please sit at the same time and they've stayed in that first stage of e-collar conditioning. Because, surprisingly enough, a lot of trainers think that that is it, that that's like an e-collar conditioning. Because, surprisingly enough, a lot of trainers think that that is it, that that's like an e-collar trained dog is like I'm always going to press the e-collar whenever I say a command, so this is going to be a really common thing. As you guys start to work with dogs, if they've already been trained by somebody else, you will probably find that you get dogs that are like this and I mostly see it with them just only using that first stage of e-collar training, so long that the dog's only association to their obedience commands is e-collar STEM going on. So how I would remedy this is I would go back to basically just food.
Speaker 4:Yeah that's what I would start over basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would make place a game. I remember I had somebody was like a dog trainer and they were shadowing us for the weekend and they brought their dog over to my house and their dog was like this and I was like, show me how you put your dog on place. And it was place. And the dog's like, okay, get rid of the e-collar, right? This dog has such a negative association with place and all of its commands because all it knows is that it gets blasted every time you say an obedience command. Um, yeah, so just go back to basically like force free.
Speaker 5:I also think that's super big, though, too, is a lot of people are scared to shelf something. I'm like I don't want to see you touch that e-collar. When I've seen it that way, like I feel like a lot of clients see it as regression, like when they come to me and they're like that in that situation they like they think not using it for a bit of time is a massive regression, when I think it can be beneficial of just putting it away for a second and kind of going back to that base it's in the foundation of almost reconditioning it and doing it in a different way that's interesting.
Speaker 3:I mostly get the opposite. I'm getting people who are like happy to get rid of the e-collar you know, I've never had that.
Speaker 5:I wish I had that. Everyone's like oh no, I'm fucking up and I I the dog's already had it on, so I don't want to go back. And it sucks because you, you're immediately kind of starting off on. Like you know, they feel like they're going backwards, which sucks yeah, but it makes like I don't know if.
Speaker 3:If somebody came to me and they're like yeah, my trainer suggested that we like go back to this, I'd be like that's amazing, you know, like that is telling of like you being a good dog trainer and not just wanting to like blast the dog for not listening or like praying for the prong, you know, but that just goes back to like educating the owners.
Speaker 5:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, you've conditioned the dog to e-collar inside. You now go to use the e-collar outside on a walk. The dog has previously been at a level 7, but now level 7 doesn't seem to work outside. Why is this happening and what do you do in this scenario? Reset the work.
Speaker 2:Say that again.
Speaker 7:state of mind distractions too fast, stimulating stimulants outside and resetting the working level for the new environment yep, yep.
Speaker 3:So, um, our level is going to change based on our environment, the dog's state of mind, all of these things. So I would essentially find the working level again. I would dial down, start off at a two tap, tap, three tap, tap, wait until I find the level that works for that dog in that environment. You know, um, and you guys will get, like I said, you'll get better at like knowing what level the dog needs to be at and what environment and how jacked up they are. Okay, you've taught the dog your training in e-caller recall by tapping on the e-caller and guiding the dog back towards you in your backyard. Now you decide to take the dog off leash in a new environment. When you tap, the dog does not respond. You dial up to a higher level, but instead of the dog coming back to you, it runs away. What has happened here and what would you do to remedy this?
Speaker 4:I was a little confused by this scenario. Not like confused, but like more like. Could it be multiple things, though, too?
Speaker 3:yeah, so this is a sign that the dog does not understand what that's kind of what.
Speaker 4:I like just wasn't properly conditioned, but I'm like well, I mean, a dog could just blow through it as well too, right yeah?
Speaker 3:um, I see this a lot like we did this with my roommate's dog. We like did like a day of conditioning in the backyard and I was like, yeah, she's got it. Um, and we like went for an off-leash hike and we're like, addy come, and she took off back to the car. She's like what the fuck was that? I'm out of here, right. So that doesn't have a solid understanding of the tool running. I actually see that a lot Like people will be like oh, my dog understands the e-collar, and then you take the leash off and they tap and the dog runs away. So I would go back to working the dog on. Tapping means.
Speaker 7:Come back to me and also practice that in different environments, because dogs are very environmental, so maybe the dog does great in your backyard but we haven't proofed it to other environments but they also in that, like, in that situation, use I forget what you call it, but like the long, the extended leash basically for that kind of a situation, for like the first time out in like a different environment yeah, for sure, always, like always, have a leash on when you're still in the conditioning phase, like until you the dog, until you know the dog, understands like 100% of what to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm gonna have that directional guidance. Um, okay, a client comes to you saying their dog is jumping up on the counter and eating things. How would you fix this using an e-collar?
Speaker 5:act of god. Just sorry, that was not just high level and the counter is the worst thing ever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we don't want the e-collar to necessarily be associated with a. No, we don't want it to be associated with, like somebody standing there. It should be. You're basically going to set the dog up so like put a piece of pizza on the counter, have your camera pointing at the counter and when the dog goes to jump up on the counter, we're going to high level, stem the dog.
Speaker 5:So have you ever had? Sorry, go ahead go ahead have you ever had like superstitious association when doing kind of the, the act of god, uh type? Work with a that's kind of what we're creating, you know but but for something that you're not wanting it to be for, if that makes sense, um I haven't done that, like I haven't had that happen to me before.
Speaker 3:I think like I'm not usually doing that. You know, my thing is like I would rather manage the dog, but if somebody's like I'm not gonna crate my dog, then I'm gonna be like okay, you know, like sure, but you are like those one-time learning moments, like you are kind of creating superstition of like you jumping on the counter and that lit you up. Or like you eating poop and that lit you up, and now the dog's like I'm not getting anywhere near poop. So it's kind of a balance. I like I don't know. It's interesting because I feel like that's kind of the argument that a lot of people have for like anti-e-collar is like superstitious moments. You know you're gonna have a dog that's like so sketched out, but I have not, like I've not really come across that. I get.
Speaker 5:I haven't had it either, and that's why I was wondering if and how you dealt with it if you have had it I really haven't.
Speaker 3:Um, I, if I get a dog that is like sketched out by things, they're just sketched out by things.
Speaker 3:It's a dog like ziv you know like the e-collar is not doing that. The dog is already like sketched out by things. So maybe like, if the dog doesn't have any clarity in any of their commands or marker words or leash pressure, and I just slap an e-collar on and start using it. Yeah, the e-collar is definitely going to create like superstitious behavior, but as long as you're like layering the e-collar on top of things, the dog already knows like I'm not really I haven't seen any like fallout from using it as like a correction in those moments, you know.
Speaker 5:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:All right, using it as like a correction in those moments you know. All right, pretend you have a dog in for a board and train who struggles with reactivity. You've successfully taught the dog the foundations like loose lead, walk, heel, basic obedience, and you've layered the e-collar on top of that. How could the e-collar be used to help that dog work through its reactivity?
Speaker 4:I just want to go back to basic, like obedience stuff, but while using the e-collar, so just keep it moving, like walking drills. But I like when I would use it with that is like anytime I look that direction I'm just like tap, tap, like you know, like pay attention to me, kind of thing. So then, right, when they look at me, like I reward it, keep it moving, kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like to use it as like I'm almost holding the dog accountable to the heel bubble. I'm not necessarily correcting for reactivity, so if I can dip away and you get out of that heel bubble, that's when the tapping goes on, you know. So I'm not necessarily gonna like correct you for looking at the dog, I'm more so correcting and like not at all and I get what you're saying.
Speaker 4:That's kind of how I'm using it too. I'm not correcting when they look, I'm like correcting like the hey, pay attention on me like I'll be like the leash, but like while tap, tapping in the opposite direction, like I'll back up and be like let's go this way. It's more like to keep their attention.
Speaker 2:I'm not really like correcting, I guess yeah, leash pressure like wait, say that again.
Speaker 3:It's like using leash pressure to make sure they're looking the way that you want them to look, instead of making the bad decision yeah, it's just like, hey, you are rubbernecking right, like you can look, but if I'm able to like leave and you're still over there, the dog like I'm going to tap on my e-collar because you're out of position, because you haven't been paying attention to me. Um, and that's another thing too that I don't really emphasize in anything in here. But when I am tapping on my e-collar or using a pop on the leash, I'm away from the dog. I want all the good things to happen in the heel bubble next to me, right? So I'm going to pay you, I'll pet your head. There's no leash pressure.
Speaker 3:But if I can get out of that bubble and you don't notice, that's when my e-caller is going to go on. It's always going to be when the dog is away from you. I want all the good things to happen when the dog is next to you and focused on you, all right? Last one let's say I'm an owner who calls you for training. How would you explain to me what the e-caller is and why it's useful?
Speaker 4:All right. I've always demonstrated it in person and it's a lot of like. A lot of the times it's when, for me, I don't do pet training, so right, I'm just using an e-collar with my dogs personally, so like when I'm around friends or my family. Usually it's like I remember my mom like the first time. I always do the same thing Most people are familiar with, like a tens machine. So I immediately compare it to that.
Speaker 4:I'm like you know, if you've used one, you know it's kind of like alarming when it's like jumping your muscles and stuff, even if you turn it up but it's not hurting. And then I kind of explain it like that. I usually like let them feel it, I show them like I'll use it, I'll find my level and I'm like this is what I feel it at, but I'm not even like I don't even have that on my dog and then I let them do it. Most of the time people are game to feel it. So then I let them feel it and then I find whatever lower level they feel and I'm like it's a little jarring. So you're like paying attention, but it didn't hurt, right, and they're like no, and usually everyone's totally fine with it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Pretty much everybody's like that's it yeah, because I think people they associate it with a shock collar. They think it's going to be like a shock pin. When you're a kid, you know, when you like touch that or you stick your finger in a light socket, it's like, oh my god, that felt terrible. I think most people's association is that and not like a tens machine, like where it's just like a dumping sensation yeah, I explain it as a tap on the shoulder yeah, I do it too Like tap, tap, tap.
Speaker 5:You turn around, tapping, stops, like someone trying to get your attention. That's like my kind of go-to. And also having people feel it is super helpful because they think it's terrifying just because of what they see on the internet or the calling it a shot color. I even call it a shot color, sometimes on purpose, to like show kind of there's nothing to be scared of because I'll call it that and they'll be like, oh, that's terrifying, and they'll feel it and they'll be like, oh, that's not terrifying. Um, and I think that kind of can help rather than avoiding it completely, calling it like an e-collaller and kind of trying to soften it. Almost. I feel like it can sometimes almost make it worse for them in their head of their preconceived notion of what it is.
Speaker 2:I like that. I'm going to have to steal that one.
Speaker 3:I have done phone calls with clients for many, many years, um, and it all, every single phone call, goes exactly the same. Um, I'll start it off. Hi, this is Meg with the everyday trainer. I'm just calling to give you a or. I'm just, you know, reaching out to talk with you about your dog and how we can help with training. Oh, my dog is the best dog in the whole wide world. But, and then they tell me all the reasons why their dog is not the best dog in the whole wide world and I go, okay, yeah, blah, blah, listen to them. And then I go how'd you hear about us? They go oh, you know, I had a friend tell me about you. Okay, awesome, are you familiar with our training? No, I don't. I don't really know how you guys do things. Okay, cool.
Speaker 3:So what we do is we teach the dogs a language. I teach them a language of leash pressure and food rewards to shape the behaviors that I want to see more of. And then we layer an e-collar on top of it. Do you know what an e-collar is? No, I've never heard of that before. Okay, so an e-collar is just an electric collar. Have you ever been to a chiropractor or a physical therapist office and they've put those little electrodes on you and they're like oh yeah, I'm like okay, so that's what it is.
Speaker 3:And basically our e-collar is our doggy translator. So dogs do not predominantly speak English, right? They're not walking around talking to each other, so we have to find a way to communicate with them in a way that they understand. So our e-caller allows us to communicate with our dogs in a really clear and effective way. So what we do is we teach them all of these skills and then we layer the e-caller on top of that and then we can use the e-caller to hold them accountable to the things that we've taught them. So we teach the dogs all the skills, teach them what the e-caller is, and then, at the end of training, we'll do a go-home session with you where we'll go over all of the things that we've taught your dog so that you guys can speak the same language that's my, I have a phone call script in the virtual shadow program.
Speaker 3:But as you guys start to like grow your business, I think you'll see that a lot of the people that are reaching out to dog trainers don't actually know what an e-collar is or anything like that. You know it's so funny because, like on the internet is not a real like how people are acting on online with dog training is are not the people who are reaching out to dog trainers to help them, like it's just, it's not the same people at all. I think that, like now I get people like that because I have like a following, but like for the past seven years that I've run my business, like I'm getting people who literally have no idea what a knee collar is or a prong collar, have never seen any of that you know, so you're going to have to explain it to them and just like such a simple way you know, and I think that's why I do everything. How I do, is because I didn't. I didn't really learn from other trainers. I, my business, grew very, very fast and so I learned from the dogs and the owners that I was working with what are people willing to do? What are people willing to keep up with?
Speaker 3:I learned very quickly that people will not continue to use prong collars. I wish they would, but they just don't leads, you know, things like that of like well, is that the best method? No, but it's the best method because that's the one that is sustainable for this client. So you guys are going to kind of like, figure out your own clientele and who is reaching out to you, because it just kind of snowballs, um, but a majority of the people who are reaching out to dog trainers in person know absolutely nothing. You know, and when you say things like shock collars, they're like oh yeah, I think I might have heard of that before. You know, but you're gonna be the one who's like educating them on that stuff. So you guys will also have a spiel eventually that you'll say like five times um, I think that's the last question on our little quiz, okay, so let me pull up the community real quick.
Speaker 5:See where we're at um, if we I was gonna do the quiz today or tomorrow, I feel like I'm kind of cheating now if you still want me to do that no, you don't have to do it okay you got a hundred percent there is one of the.
Speaker 3:I have like another quiz somewhere. Oh, it's like our values or I don't know. I have another quiz and it like marks people as right or wrong and everybody's like I got all the questions wrong and I'm like it's not a right or wrong. You know, it's just like I had to select like certain things. Um, okay, so we have watched e-caller videos. We've done our e-caller quiz um puppy training.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna have you guys go ahead and skip over the board and trains, unless you plan on doing board and trains. Um, go ahead and watch the videos of let's work the dogs, particularly the reactivity sessions. I think that's going to give a little bit of clarity to how I'm using, um my e-caller to redirect dogs in those reactive moments. And then the go-home session with Mabel is a full go-home session, so you're gonna see how I explain everything to the owners in that session. And then private lesson with daisy. Daisy is a super reactive dog. It's just a good session to see kind of the progress that we got in like one session. Um, so I'm gonna have you guys go ahead and watch those.
Speaker 3:And on friday well, I don't know how are we feeling? Are we like caught up on everything. Are we feeling overwhelmed? I'm fine, fine, okay, cool.
Speaker 3:So I'll have you watch those videos the let's work the dogs and then on Friday we're going to get into kind of our values and the business side of things. So I'll have you cover the let's get clear section. That's where we get into your values and how that's going to be kind of like your guiding force as you move forward in your business. You need to get very, very clear on like what you actually want that to look like. You know, or you're going to fall down the rabbit hole of dog trainer burnout and be like I can't do this anymore, you know.
Speaker 3:So we can set up our lives and our businesses in a way that aligns with our values and that is sustainable to us, and we're going to move past the burnout stage that all dog trainers go through. But if you don't, you're going to feel burnt out because your life is going to revolve around crazy clients and crazy dogs, you know. So you have to make sure that that doesn't happen. And then next week we're going to get into the business side of things. So no more video assignments. As far as the training goes, I will still do a live session on Friday. So I'll take out the dogs and work all the dogs and you can see what that looks like. But next week our calls are going to be around the business, our values, how we're pricing, how we structure our email templates and llc and all that sort of stuff cool, cool.
Speaker 7:Yes, all right, y'all, and I'm behind on my working video, so I'll post that post your videos, yes, are you gonna comment on those again, like the other one?
Speaker 3:okay, okay, cool yeah, yeah, I'll go through um. I think I'm almost caught up on videos. I just have to go through a couple more um. But yeah, I'll go through and leave feedback and then, if there's anything that you guys want more clarity on, or if you're like hey, I want to redo this one and like, please submit it and just tag me in it so that I can go and watch and give you some feedback if we have a video, do you recommend we like on no matter what, it is always posted to the community rather than just like send it to you separately not that I have done that, but like always posted to the community you don't want everybody to see your video no, no, that's fine, that's fine, is that?
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 3:I don't care, it's up to you if you want to send it to me privately, you can.
Speaker 4:I love watching everyone's videos, so please, I do too.
Speaker 2:Everyone does feel like a little bit different, so yeah, yeah, I think it's helpful because then when you give feedback it helps us see like like for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there you go post it to the community all right yeah also I feel like you're pretty advanced with your dog, so it's cool to see like the next stage. You know okay, okay. I almost made yeah, let us see yours yeah, I was like you have all people like your dog yeah, I almost made you like teach something and I was like I won't, I won't make him do that, but I probably will in the community, like I don't know, were you on the?
Speaker 3:like I won't I won't make him do that, but I probably will in the community. Like I don't know were you on the like, I have my Wednesday calls in the community, which is like up next, but there's a girl in there who is like talking about, like what she's working on in agility and I'm like I'm gonna have to have her teach a teach a little section on agility because, like, I have no idea what she's talking about. Yeah, really know what she's doing. Yeah, um, okay, cool. Well, I'm glad you guys are feeling good. If there's anything at all that you want more clarity on, or like if you guys ever get dogs in for training and you're like help, you know, help me with this dog, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3:Like people who have already done the virtual shadow program love to answer those types of questions too. You know so. Like you have us all here. It's a safe space, um, we won't judge, so use that. You know it can feel very isolating when you're just training dogs by yourself. You're like what the fuck am I doing? You know so. At any point, feel free to ask questions or post videos. Posting videos is very helpful, though, because people actually like see what you're doing. Um, okay, so friday is live training session and then next week will be all about the business, business stuff, cool. Um, I'm doing a general community call here in 30 minutes. If you guys have no life and want to join that one as well, I'll still be here, so all righty thank you thank you see you later
Speaker 1:bye I hope you guys enjoyed this episode and learned a lot. I always have so much fun in these group calls. The virtual shadow program is kind of my thing. It's like one of my favorite things to do. So if you are interested in joining, I will put the link in the show notes. This next round starts September 8th 2025. I would love to see you there. Thank you so much for being here and listening. I'll see you next week. Thank you.