Boundaries First

Your dog doesn’t “snap out of nowhere.” More often, the warning signs have been rehearsed for months: guarding the couch, blowing off cues, refusing the crate, pushing into space, growling to get its way, then escalating to a bite when the human finally draws a line. We sit down with Angela, a trainer with a decade of hands-on experience, to talk about healthy boundaries that keep dogs safe and keep owners from getting bullied in their own homes.

We dig into the hard stuff dog owners and dog trainers both face: what to do when a dog has a bite history, how to spot client red flags early, and why some cases fail because the person will not follow through. You’ll hear our nonnegotiables for behavior modification like crate training, muzzle training, indoor leash rules, thresholds, and realistic management plans. We also get into the uncomfortable truth that “loving dogs” can become dangerous when it means zero structure and no consequences.

Then we zoom out to the bigger picture: why boundaries can reduce anxiety and reactivity, how small amounts of stress build a more resilient dog, and why structured walks can be mentally richer than an hour of chaotic freedom. We also talk trainer boundaries, burnout, and how saying no protects your good clients and your reputation.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re being too strict or not strict enough, this conversation will help you find the middle that actually works. Subscribe for more practical dog training conversations, and share this with a friend who needs it.

Visit us on the website here to see what we've got going on and how you can join our pack of good dogs and owners.

Transcript

Why Boundaries Matter

SPEAKER_05 0:11

Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer Podcast. My name is Meg, and I am a dog trainer. Today's episode, we're talking about healthy boundaries. Boundaries with our dogs, and if you're a dog trainer, boundaries with our clients. I'm joined by special guest Angela. We'll give a little intro to her, but you guys know the drill. Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet us back here. Hello. Welcome. Thank you. Hello, Toma.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Toma also hasn't been on a podcast episode in a really long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

It has been a minute for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:01

I know. People love people love Toma on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Well,

Angela’s Unusual Start In Training

SPEAKER_01 1:05

still here.

SPEAKER_05 1:06

Still here. He still exists. We just recorded at night and Toma goes to bed early.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So yes, the whole world knows.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

So our special guest today is Angela. Angela is a dog trainer of 10 years, but she's very young to be doing this for so long. So I'll let you give us a little intro.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yeah. So I've been like actually dog training where I'm taking on clients and stuff since I was about 16. Um, but I grew up in the world of dog shows and dog workshops. My mom, um, she has been a dog trainer for my whole life. And I just lived the life of a child of a dog trainer. Yeah. What is that like? A lot of different dogs in and out. I would always get so sad when I would watch like these cute dogs leave my house after a couple weeks and being like, wait, no, why aren't they just staying? Um, and then yeah, dog workshops, like uh she did Mondio Ring since I was about 10. Um, so going to Mondio Ring workshops on the weekends or dog shows. I was always uh sitting in lessons and just watching her train dogs since I was probably like five or six. Did you think that you were gonna be a dog trainer? No, I actually did not want to be a dog trainer. I when I was in high school, I was like, absolutely not. Like this seems so like just so hard. Like having people's babies in our homes for four, six, eight weeks, um, working with difficult dogs, uh, behavior modifications, all that. So when I was in high school, I actually wanted to go into ag business. I was really big into FFA. And then senior year high school, I transferred out of my regular public school. I live in a very tiny town, so there's only two options. Um, our public school and then like an independent study program. So I went into the independent study program because I was already out of town all the time. So my mom in the school was like, hey, you gotta like figure something else out. You can't be missing this much school. Yeah. And I in the independent study program, they had a dog training class, which I did not do because I was like, no. You're like, I don't need this. Yeah. Um, but it was run through the shelter. So they would take between like six and eight kids and take dogs out of the shelter three times a week and they would work with them. And my teachers would always ask me like about dogs because I was always going to dog shows and workshops, and they're like, Oh, that's so cool. Like, I was slowly getting into training my own dogs. I had just gotten my first Malinois at that point and was kind of getting into Mondiaring about that time. How old were you? 16. That's crazy. Okay. Um, but I had had a whippet, so he was my first or second dog that I did sports stuff with. Like your personal dog. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

So you have grown up with like family dogs your whole life.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yeah. My mom had a slew of different types of breeds. But when I was growing up, primarily was Newfoundlands and uh Showline Working Line Dobermans. And when I wanted a dog, I wanted an Italian greyhound really bad. And she said, absolutely not. Like you're seven, you're not getting a working line or an Italian greyhound. When I have all these giant dogs, you're gonna break it. So she got me a whippet. And where I live, hunting is really big. So we had Saluki's and Ibethan hounds as well that we did open field coursing and hunting with jackrabbits and stuff like that. So I did some hunting stuff with her, and then I was like, okay, like I kind of want another dog. So she got me another whippet, and I got into rally and obedience and kind of the AKC world with him, and I really liked it. And then I was, yeah, junior in high school, and she was like, Oh, like I'm getting a Malinois. And she went and got him, and I said, Oh, thanks for the new dog. I stole him. This is mine now, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

And he is, yeah, he's about 10 now. And yeah, he was my first trial dog and kind of just started my career in like love for dogs. Wait, who is that? Varro, you guys haven't met him. Okay, okay. Yeah, he stays home. Okay. Um, but through all that, like going to the workshops every weekend, like my teachers would ask. And then they had just fired the other dog trainer that was running the program because they didn't love her. And my teacher was like, Hey, like, right after you graduate, do you want to run the program? And I was like, sure, I don't know what I'm doing, but yeah, run my peers basically through three days a week of dog training with dogs that I don't know nothing about and they're shelter dogs. And that really made me love teaching people dog training. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:28

That's cool. And what was something that you learned doing that versus working for your mom?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

I mean, this through the shelter, like obviously you're getting a bunch of different types of dogs, right? So I had dogs in my class that had been in two, three, four previous classes with the other trainer who made no progress. And so one, this kind of gave me an opportunity to run people through how I would want to run a program or like teach people and like learning how to teach people. Cause obviously I can watch my mom do it all day long, but you actually stand in front of someone and you're like, oh wait, like I'm by myself and I have to run someone through this. Much different. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, just learning how to teach people dog training was kind of a learning curve at first. But then I was like, oh wait, like you people don't really know what you're doing. I don't really know what I'm doing, so we'll figure it out together. Yeah. And it was nice to see dogs that have failed out of or have like been in the shelter for two years that have gone through this program four, six times, make like huge strides with the same kids. So like that was really cool for me.

SPEAKER_05 6:30

You're like, I do actually know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Literally. And then after like I did that program for three semesters. The third semester, I I remember driving home with my mom and I was like, I want to be a dog trainer. And at that time, I was already going over to the Michael Ellis school. So my first mom is from Michael and was already kind of training for Mondial Ring. And he knew my mom for many years before that. And he was like, Why doesn't she come through the immersion program? Which, if you don't know, was a four-month, four and a half month program for dog trainers or aspiring dog trainers where we learned kind of all the basic stuff. And I was like, okay, sweet, sweet. So packed up my life and moved to Santa Rosa for four and a half months. And yeah, rest is history. Hell yeah. When did you get out of that? I think it was fall of 2019.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Okay. And then did you go back to your mom's business and work for that?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah. So I stayed at the school for about another four and a half months. I interned after that and then went home. And then I actually like was only home for a couple of months, and then I moved to Temecula for a year and worked with a trainer there, Francois Massart, who's lovely, loved working for him. Then I went back home and kind of picked up on my mom's business and helped her out because she wanted to kind of slow things down. So I kind of picked up with the business end of the board and trains and the lessons and all that.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

Nice. Yeah. You are very experienced.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, I've been around the block for only being 26

Red Flags When A Dog Bites

SPEAKER_02 8:00

a couple of times, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:02

Yeah. So I wanted to bring you on for this episode because this is a conversation that we have had like quite a few times, but I recently had an experience that was a nice little reminder of why we set boundaries as dog trainers in like the clients that we work with and the dogs that we work with. I recently had somebody call me. Uh, they were struggling with their dog. The dog was resource guarding. The dog had actually bitten the owner. And at the time, this was the first time I talked to this person. I was like, okay, we gotta get you in for training right away. But he wasn't doing any sort of structure with the dog. Like the resource guarding dog is like sleeping on the couch and the dog's not crate trained. Like there's zero boundaries in the home. So I was like, you know what? Come for a consultation at the facility. If you do group classes, we're at least gonna like help you with leash handling and you know, can give you some guidance on that. And management. Management, yeah, exactly. So at the time I was like, okay, we can definitely help you with where you're at with this dog. You don't have to do a board and train. He's like, I can't, I can't afford a board and train. I'm like, okay. And then I get a phone call and the behavior has progressed. So he tells me, Okay, well, you know, the dog bit me again, and the dog bit my friend. Okay, what happened? Well, the dog was on the couch sitting in between us, and my friend was petting his paws, and he started to growl, so we kind of moved away, and then I tried to put him into the kitchen behind the baby gate, and he didn't want to do that, so he growled and nipped at me, and it just progressed from there. And I was on the phone with this person, and I was like, hey, this is a very serious dog, you have to take this seriously, you need to do a board and train. This dog already has two bites under its sleeve, plus, you know, you got him as a rescue. He's probably bitten other people before. And this person was just not really taking it seriously, you know, and I had previously told him, like, you have to set boundaries with this dog, you know, this dog is pushing you around and it's working, and you, you know, we need to set boundaries so that this does not happen again. And I fell back into, I would say, the version of myself who would take on pretty much every single dog because part of me has this mentality of like, okay, if I have to help you, you know, a bit of like savior complex of like, if I don't help you, you're gonna get mauled by this dog, you know, and like you're gonna go to some force-free person who is not gonna do anything for you. So I kind of like jumped into that mode of like, okay, you need to, you know, you need to come for a consult right away. And then he's like, Oh well, you know, there's traffic. And I just I like feel my blood boiling while I'm on the phone call with this person. I'm like, your dog just bit somebody and you are not taking this seriously. And I'm standing there like explaining it to our friends, and you know, of course, Shane is like, fuck that person. Don't take that person.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

He bit someone and sent them to the hospital.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Yeah, and and then I'm like, you're right. Like, why, you know, why am I sitting here gonna take this person who I know is already not going to take this seriously and isn't my ideal client, you know? And I know that you have so much experience working with clients, and we just, you know, talked about you had to fire somebody like very early on. You saw your mom had to do that when you were like 16 years old.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, so it was a mastiff, um, had bitten multiple people, and they came in like for the consultation, and my mom was like, Hey, like I was 15 or 16 at the time. She's like, You go in this room. Like, I don't trust this dog or these people. So I'm like looking through the little window because I want to see what's going on. And they come in the room and the dog's like very clearly whalinging, not happy to be there. And they're like, Oh, hi, and like let the dog run up to my mom. And she's like stepping back and they're like letting this big dog drag them around. And they just like drop the leash, and they were like, Oh, well, like he only bites them in not in like this situation. And my mom's like, What do you mean, not in this situation? He's never been in this situation, so how do you know? And they were like, Well, it's not that bad, it's not that bad. And so, like, they got to talking and he had bit like four people, yeah. And they were like, We want to do a boredom train. I was like, Okay, like just so you know, I can't turn Cujo into Lassie. Like, that's just not feasible. But I can we can put some management tools in place and yada yada yada. And they were like, Okay, it sounds good. And I was like, okay, when you come to drop him off for the boredom train, like he has to have a muzzle on, and like showed them how to put, they had brought the muzzle to the console room. So we showed them how to put it on, showed them how to put the safety on, all that. Come to the console, open up the back of their truck, and dog just like jumps out, no leash, no muzzle, no nothing. And they were like, Oh, well, we just couldn't figure it out. So, like, we were just hoping you could do it. And I was like, my one's like, no, like your dog won't let me touch him. So we get the muzzle on, she brings the dog in the house, like two days later. They text her, it's like, oh, I hope Cujo, and I'm just gonna call him Kujo because I don't remember his name. Yeah, I hope Cujo's doing well. Just so you know, he really likes sleeping in the bed with the person who's uh training with him or like working with him because he like that's how he builds relationships. Diabolical. That is diabolical. And my mom was like, you need to come get your dog because one, I'm putting myself, my two children, my husband, all of my dogs in danger of your dog mauling them if like management fails or whatever it may be. And you guys obviously aren't taking this seriously of like your dog truly wants to hurt someone. So they came, they picked up the dog, and like two months later we heard that he got euthanized because he bit another person.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that is like one of my firm boundaries now. But previously, I would say, like, when I was a little bit younger, and I don't even, it wasn't necessarily coming from a place of like me being naive. Like, I knew that not everybody was gonna be a good fit for reasons like that, but it was I wanted to help them, you know. I was like, I feel like I'm the only person who can really help you because you're gonna go to somebody else and they're gonna be like, oh, it's gonna be $10,000 for your dog to like rot in a crate for an eight-week board and train. And, you know, like I really, really wanted to help these dogs. And it was only through experience with getting burned by these types of people and dogs and you know, situations that I was like, you can't help these people.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

No, you can't. And it was especially hard for us because like I live in a town of 4,000 people, it's only me and like one recent-ish purely positive trainer that is in the area. And I always felt like I had to try because who else are they gonna go to? Yeah, like the dogs are going to go. I'm literally this the last hope.

unknown 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

And I've gotten that call. I've I've gotten the call of, hey, I my dog has a euthanasia appointment in two days. Like, this is the last option. Do you think you could help us? And I've had those conversations of one, either, yes, I can help, but how much your dog is going to be able to live a normal life after that is up to the dog because I don't know the dog in the moment. And are you guys okay living with like a dog like that? And every time they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, no, like I'm gonna give you the worst case scenario possible. Do you want to live with a dog like this for 10 years? Because that's what we're looking at.

SPEAKER_05 15:53

Yeah. And I think it's super important to be honest with people about that. And also, you know, a big like hard stop for me is people who are unwilling to put any sort of boundaries on their dog. Like, if you don't want to crate train your dog, I I cannot help you. No, you know, if you're coming to me and you're like, my dog is biting me or biting my child, and I'm like, okay, is your dog crate trained? And they're like, I would never use a crate. I'm like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

And I get some of the people that refuse to crate train but are happy to leave their dogs outside unsupervised for 10, 12 hours a day. Yeah, don't you?

SPEAKER_05 16:27

But I feel like that's because of where you're at.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah. Yeah. And I I have not taken people because it is during my consultations, it is one of the first things, like, especially with behavior mods, that I go, okay, like is the dog crate trained? And they go like, no. And I'm like, okay, well,

Nonnegotiables Like Crates And Muzzles

SPEAKER_02 16:40

like that's gonna have to happen. And if they go no, I go, like, oh, well, you know, a board and train might not be for you because the dog is crate like here and needs to learn how to be in a crate in order to live in your home safely. So maybe I'll recommend you to some people like down south. Yeah. What are some other like hard stops for you? If I am talking to the person and they are basically like, oh, well, going to the dog park is a must, or I this dog has to be off leash because that's the only way I'm gonna be able to exercise them. And it's like a serious dog, that's kind of a no for me. If they're like, oh, well, we only we don't have like any time to train the dog. I typically have the conversation with them of like, probably not the best dog for you. Yeah. Because this dog is gonna require a lot of training and require you guys to manage him a lot. Uh living in the area that I live, a lot of people just want a dog that they can throw out front or throw out back to go potty and then like go on off-leash hike. Yeah. And so I have to have a lot of these conversations of like, if that's your goal, then probably not this dog is correct for you. Um, and probably not this training because I'm gonna recommend things that you aren't gonna do.

SPEAKER_05 17:46

Right. Right. I feel like a hard stop for me too is people who aren't willing to make sacrifices for like the betterment of their dog.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah, like they're like, oh no, like the dog has to be off leash. And you're like, okay, well, sacrifice is that the dog's not gonna be off-leash, but like your dog's gonna be able to live a life.

SPEAKER_05 18:02

Yeah, or like, hey, this dog needs to wear a muzzle anytime it is out in public or out of its crate.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

I have uh one dog like that at home that is a client of mine. And I told them, I said, this dog has bit both of you, both of the people in the home multiple times, has tried to kill their cat multiple times, has tried to bite other people multiple times, has successfully bit a couple of like mailman people coming in and out of the home. And I said, This dog has to be muzzled as soon as he comes out of the crate. Muzzle and on a place bed, because that is the only way that this dog is going to be able to live safely in your home. And they agreed. This was the dog that I got the call two days prior to the euthanasia, and that dog is still living a very good life. And they send me pictures of him all the time, muzzle on a place bed or on a long line in the yard.

SPEAKER_05 18:47

Yeah. And those are the people that you're actually able to help.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Those are the people that I'll bend over backwards for. Yeah. I I've answered call 2 a.m. calls for them because I was like, if they're calling me, like something is amiss.

SPEAKER_06 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

And I'm always there for them because I know that they'll do whatever it takes to continue having this dog in their life in a safe way.

SPEAKER_05 19:08

Yeah. And I don't like publicly take on dogs with behavioral or well, no, behavioral issues, yes, but with like a bite record because of most of the time the owners. And I'm always very realistic with people of like, hey, dogs really hurt people, you know, and unfortunately, I've seen really, really bad things happen. I've seen people get mauled and their dogs have to get euthanized. I've seen them kill other dogs before, you know, like dogs in the household. Like, I don't want anybody to ever have to go through that. And so I have those tough conversations with clients, and a lot of times I won't take people on, not because of the dog, but because of the owner. So when I'm doing consultations with people, I'm not even looking at the dog's behavior, right? Because I'm pretty confident in my abilities to teach the dog and, you know, fix the behaviors or whatever, but I'm not always confident in my ability to change somebody's mind on something like the crate, or even believing that their dog would do something that they don't think the dog is gonna do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

And there have been times when I've had dogs come in for training that I've been like, this dog would be totally fine in a dog trainer's home. Yeah. But in an everyday like person who wants to take their dog off leash on the canal and go to the dog park, like this is not, or just walk their dog down the street, like their timing's gonna be off, and this dog is not the right fit. And I've had to have some serious, like really hard conversations with clients of like, hey, this dog is going to kill a kid if your timing is off, if you mismanage them just for a second. And yeah, I could live with the dog because I live in management. I have four intact male dogs. Because you have that dog trainer anxiety. I am paranoid that will never let anything bad happen. No, and so I've had those conversations with owners of like, it's not on you necessarily, but it's just like this dog's way too hard for the average person to own, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 21:14

Or sometimes people are way too soft for certain dogs 100%.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah, like the client you were just talking about who is totally like, Oh, he's still on the couch after he bit him multiple times.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

But he doesn't even take his dog seriously. Like versus like, you gotta acknowledge that this is a gnarly dog.

SPEAKER_05 21:30

Yeah, and that's the thing is like the the second he was like, actually, can we do the consultation virtually because traffic is really bad. I'm like, I don't Yeah, you're not taking this seriously. If you took your dog seriously, you'd send four hours of traffic to get the train. You would leave immediately, you would call out of work, like, and the thing that scares me so much and why part of me like still wants to help these people is because people like him are walking around the world. Like he's gonna take that. Dog to the beach. He's gonna take him off leash. And let him off leash, you know, and then be shocked when the dog does something bad.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah. And then he also won't still won't probably take responsibility and be like, oh, like maybe I should get training. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

But it's like you said, like the people, the clients that like really want to take it seriously, like, yeah, you'll go leapstone.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Above and beyond. I'll go the extra mile. I have given those people discounts. I'm like, you'll you can board your dog for free with me, like, because you guys have really gone above and beyond and made sure that this dog is going to live a life, and maybe not the most ideal life for every person from their perspective, but a safe life.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

And also they're willing to change their expectations on what a dog's life looks like. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

That was a hard conversation that I had to have with them. I was like, this dog, he's either going to be eathanized or he can still live a life. You can still take him on walks, but it's gonna be an on-leash muzzle e-collar, and you guys can't take your eyes off of him. And they were they loved him so much that they were like, Yeah, we are willing to do that, and they still do it to this day.

SPEAKER_05 23:06

Yeah. And that's something that really stood out to me about this person. I promise I wouldn't normally like blast, I wouldn't blast phone calls that I have online, but I'm like, oh my god, this needs to be a public service announcement. Um, but he was like very, oh, I have to set boundaries. Oh, I have to put them in a crate. Like you quote, loving dogs is those people scare me more than anybody else.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

100%. Yeah because they allow those dogs to live a life with no boundaries because they feel bad for the dog. And I find it a lot with dogs that come from uh because I think he got that dog from a rescue situation. It's like yeah, oh well, the last owner created him, and so I don't want to be like the last owner. Yeah, yeah. And I just those are the dogs that walk all over people, and then they figure it out that it works, and that's just so scary.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

Yeah, and that dog has been in multiple houses, and I'm sure has done that to multiple families. And I I've talked about Gretchen before before. She's living with uh trainer Katie in Orlando in my Orlando house. Um, but Gretchen was my behavioral dog. She was kind of like my first experience getting a truly aggressive dog. She was a tiny little shepherd, she's like a muffin-sized shepherd, she's super cute, but definitely got some screws loose. And she had been into a bunch of different households and have has gotten reps, not being crated, overfed, you know, quote unquote loved. But it caused her to basically bully every family that she was with and bite people, right? She's like, Oh, I don't want to be touched, bite. Oh, I don't want to be told to get off the couch, bite. Like, I can just use aggression to get whatever I want. And so all of these people who, you know, love dogs are, oh, we, you know, save these dogs. I got this dog from a rescue. He said, you know, I'm willing to do anything. I love this dog so much. But as soon as we say, Okay, that dog needs to be crate trained and you need to have a leash on it 24-7 when it's out of the crate. Well, I'm not gonna do that. You remember the Sheba consult that I had?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah. I think when it just boils down to you wanna love the dog, give them all the freedom and whatever, and then at the end of the day, dog has to get put down because it's now a liability. You know, running the house and biting biting everybody.

SPEAKER_05 25:40

Yeah. I had a consult with this couple that came into the facility and their Shiba was biting them. And typical Shiba behavior. Typical Shiba behavior, and they're like, Well, we need to fix this now. And I was like, Okay, well, you can come to classes and we'll work on your leash handling. No, I want to fix, I want to fix this. Okay, well, we need to train you on how to communicate with your dog because this dog is doing whatever he wants. Like, it's always it's the same thing, right? The dog is doing whatever they want. I'm like, the dog's doing whatever they want. Um, well, how do I get him to stop like attacking me? I'm like, well, we could start with putting a leash on in the house. Oh, well, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

And it's like, that's like the most basic thing. If you're not gonna do that, why would I continue working with you? I was like, why?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

I guess the biting's not that bad, huh?

SPEAKER_05 26:31

Yeah. I was like, okay. I think I was literally like, okay. Like, how else do I help you?

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Well, I'm like, what do you want me to do? You know, my thing from a client perspective is, or from someone like evaluating that dog, I'm like, okay, if you're not willing to put a leash on the dog, then you're not going to put the dog in a crate. You're not going to have the dog wear an e-collar once outside of the crate with no leash.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

Even punish the dog. I know we don't like to talk about punishment, but like it is truly a very valuable thing in behavioral mod. 100%. Like a dog like that has to learn I can't use aggression to get what I want.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah. And it's can I think we talked about it a little bit with that dog that you had a consultation with. Like, sometimes I wonder if like just telling that dog no and giving it a meaningful correction would have solved a lot of those problems. And the dog's just never been told in a meaningful way that going after you is just not allowed.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

Yeah. And that's the other thing that sucks too, is it's usually not the dog's fault.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

No.

SPEAKER_05 27:29

You know, like I don't think a stable dog is really ever going to be pushed to biting people. Like, there's definitely probably a bit of some instability as far as the genetics go, but that dog has just never had somebody tell it no.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

And it's all the little tiny things that add up, like in the end. It's, oh, my dog's pulling me on the leash. Oh, my dog is being kind of reactive. Oh, my dog, like, I sit on the couch and the dog comes up and lays on me. Oh, I can't get the dog off the couch. Like, all those little things eventually pile into, oh, my dog bit me for the for the first time. There's rarely a dog that's like, oh, today I'm just gonna bite you. It's typically a lot of little things that lead up to it, and people don't take those things seriously.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah. It's always all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_05 28:15

All of it would mean out of nowhere. Yeah. So, what

Boundaries Reduce Anxiety And Reactivity

SPEAKER_05 28:20

are some boundaries that you suggest people implement with their dogs? Let's say they're struggling with some behavioral issues. We won't go as far as like attacking the owner. I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

I probably had a dog attack me. So I think I have some good good boundaries. Yes. Um, I definitely like every dog needs to be crate trained. Whether it's the most happy golden retriever or the most serious behavior mod case, crate training is a number one. Um, a lot of the times for most of my behavior mods, they are muzzle trained. Even if the dog maybe necessarily is only like, oh, they're only aggressive at the vet. Okay, you're still gonna get muzzle trained because it's gonna come in handy one day.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

And I don't I don't want conflict around restraining you in any way.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

So a lot of the times I'm doing a lot of handling games like grabbing your collar. Typically, all of that was with a muzzle on. Um, most of the time with those dogs, I have either a long line, long leash, definitely e-collar on if the dog's outside of a crate just for kind of a safety. Um, and then some other things are like thresholds, not letting the dogs on the couch if they have serious issues. Um yeah, just pretty much that the dog has to be invited into living my life. Not that the dog can like live its life with me, like with a serious behavior bond case, though.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

Yeah. And why do you think that has such an impact on how the dogs act towards us? Like I see it in our human relationships, right? Like healthy boundaries make for good people relationships too. So it makes sense that it would be the same thing for our dogs, but what is something that you see that you've kind of seen over the years of like why it makes such a big impact on our dog's behavior?

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I think a lot of the times the dogs just are kind of like dogs that don't have boundaries are kind of just like lost in this big world. Like they're trying to figure it out for themselves of like, where am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to do, right? Because you're not telling me. And dogs with any sort of like weird genetic kind of fearful aggression or just any sort of just not super confident, they really, really struggle with like, you're not telling me what to do. So I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I want and I'll figure it out along the way. And implying some boundaries, kind of like either right off the bat, or even if you haven't started, like doing it now and just kind of giving the dog direction, I think initially sometimes makes them a little bit more stressed out, which is why I think people give up because they go to put the dog in the crate and they're like, Oh my god, Fluffy is like so sad and so scared because I've never put this dog in a crate and it's been five years. And so they give up. And so the dog goes, Okay, well, one, that worked, so great. Like I'll be fearful or scared or upset, and you'll give let me do whatever the hell I want. And then so I feel like if people kind of just push past that just a little bit, and the dog goes, Oh, wait, like you're gonna tell me the things that I can do actually decreases some of the anxiety or fearfulness or whatever the dog may um be having because you're pointing them in the direction you want them to go. And I think that that really helps a lot of dogs.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. Something that I've kind of I guess articulated to myself recently. I've had a lot of reactive dogs. We talked about this, Toma, a bit, but I see a trend with reactive dogs and like neurotic sniffing, like they're almost very pushy with like sniffing the ground, sniffing people, sniffing other dogs. And I think it's the same state of mind that like impulsive reactive behavior that is leading them to have to sniff everything. Like we have a little doodle right now, and he's reactive to other dogs, and you take him out, and he's like nose glued to the ground, and like if somebody walks up, he's like jumping on them and like sniffing them really hard. And I had a Doberman recently who was the same thing, like he was sniffing me so hard in the first interaction, and it was so like forceful and impulsive, and just like a different type of reactive behavior. Like, it's not curiosity at that point, it's not curiosity, no, it's hitting a different spot in their brain, yeah, yeah. And I was like walking this little dog, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, teaching him how to loosely walk was kind of frustrating because he wants to sniff so bad. And I was like, I get so much hate for just this simple little behavior of teaching dogs to not stop, sniff because that's become a really big thing with any behavior mod reactive dog, is oh, we'll take them out on sniff walks.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

And it's like, why are we doing that?

SPEAKER_05 32:49

But it's like, okay, you can do both, but I want my dog to have the skill of a loose-leaved walk.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

And I want the dog to understand that it needs to get permission to go do that because not every second of every walk is going to be You need to do that.

SPEAKER_05 33:02

Like that is a reactive tendency, yeah. You know, that like you need to neurotically sniff everything. And I think, you know, the world of dog training has become like, oh, never make them uncomfortable. Like it's 100%. Always be fulfilling, and as soon as it gets uncomfortable, like stop doing it and you know, have a bigger distance, and it is just damaging the dog's mental health drastically.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

I always equival it. I always tell people like when I'm doing lessons with dogs and I'm like showing them kind of how to introduce small amounts of stress to dogs in their home. Because I really believe that that's part of like the training process is like I can introduce stress to a dog and they get over it because they realize that I'm not, they don't have a history with me of being a pushover. So there's never a like, oh well, I can get away with this. But in the owner's home with the owner's hand on the leash, a lot of the times the dogs, when like I have the owners do something that I've done with the dog 500 times, the dog goes, No, because I've been able to freak out and it's worked. And introducing little bits of stress and having the dog overcome it. I've obviously not saying like, oh, we need to introduce dogs to stress where they just shut down and like can't work. I'm talking about teaching the dog to load up in a car without you picking it up or getting in the bathtub that with the water not on. And the dog freaks out and you're like, nope, like you're gonna do it because it's not not nothing. You're not gonna die, you're fine. Yeah. And showing dogs that they're not gonna die through a little bit of stress and showing them, like, hey, I'm not gonna put you in a situation where you think you're gonna get hurt. Yeah. Or where you think something bad is gonna happen. You need to trust me a little more. You need to trust me a little bit more and become a little bit more resilient. And I do think adding in small amounts of stress in a dog's everyday life, where they can overcome it, builds a more resilient dog because the big movement of like, oh, don't show dog stress and none of that. How is that dog gonna live in an everyday life where there are stressful things happening every single day? Yeah. Every day in the outside world.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

And I don't remember what this experiment is called, but there's literally an experiment done. I think it's on like hamsters or like wild mice or something, where they built like the perfect enclosure for them. It had, you know, wheels and enrichment and everything. And the like rodents were getting sick because there was no stressors in their environment.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Cortisol plays a huge level in how even humans, humans, dogs, anything breathing adapts to the outside world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:33

There was a girl did a post recently that I saw. She was like, I optimized my whole life to have the least amount of stress possible, and I've never been more miserable.

unknown 35:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:42

But she was like, My apartment is the perfect temperature and my schedule is set up perfectly, and I go and get coffee at the perfect coffee place every day, and everything is perfect, but I like something is missing. I feel empty.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think we do people that and I typically find this like people who have stressful lives don't want their dogs to be stressed because I feel like they're like, well, I'm stressed. I need my dog not to be stressed because that I feel horrible being stressed. So why would I want that to be my dog? And I go, but like, yeah, but you're like a better person because you're stressed a little bit, because you're good for you for you.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

It's okay. Like, I'm not saying throw your dog off a cliff, but like maybe teach it to walk into the bathtub at the pet store.

SPEAKER_05 36:26

Yeah. And that's my thing with like structured walks, too, is like I would

Structured Walks And Threshold Rules

SPEAKER_05 36:30

say structured walks is one of the biggest things that I get hate for, especially on the water. Which is crazy. Wild. That's wild. But I'm like, guys, this is such a simple skill. If you think that this is mean, like all I'm asking is that the dog walk with me, that's it. That's literally all the dog has to do. And you think that this is the most horrible thing that I'm torturing dogs.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

And like with my boredom trains, I teach two different types of walks. So we have our heel and then we have like our let's go, which let's go is as much leashes as I give you. You can do whatever you want, just don't be reactive. Yeah. And then he is like, you're gonna heal next to me, sit when I or yeah, sit when I stop. No sniffing, no saying hi to other dogs, no like being reactive. Like you're just kind of right there. And I tell owners, like the first couple of weeks, you will only be working on heel because that's the harder one to accomplish. Like if you go straight into letting the dog go back into like just regular loose leash walking, yeah. And then you only use the you try to use your heel when you need it, it's not gonna be feasible.

unknown 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Because the dog's gonna be like, well, no, like why would I do the harder thing if I've only ever been doing the easier thing? So getting the that be like healing solid and structured walks. I also drew truly believe that structured walks are harder mentally for dogs.

SPEAKER_05 37:47

Oh, a thousand percent. I love a structured walk. I hate teaching behaviors, you know. Yeah, Angela was training Stony because I was like, I don't want to teach Stoney obedience. I hate teaching behaviors, but like I love just teaching dogs how to like exist with me. And I could just be a dog trainer that just walks dogs and be totally happy. And honestly, those dogs would be really good.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

And they would be fulfilled because structured walks actually takes a lot of mental strength and mental thinking. And the dogs, I always like say a 20-minute structured walk is better than letting your dog free run for an hour. Yes. Or going on. Because I get a lot of those clients that like where I live, a lot of desert land.

SPEAKER_06 38:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

And they're like, Well, I run my cattle dog for five miles a day next to the quad. And but he just like goes home and takes a 20-minute nap and is ready to go. And I'm like, okay, like a structured 15-minute walk with you. Make him use his brain. Yeah, like make him think. It's okay. And maybe he'll be a little bit stressed because he wants to go for that run, but he's learning to follow, like, have some boundaries and listen to what you're saying. And then when you do let him off leash, now we have a better head on the dog because he's thinking.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

Yeah. And like that is where I teach the dogs to kind of like look to me for guidance, you know, because like you said, a lot of the dogs that are struggling with behavioral issues are typically kind of fearful. They're like lost in the sauce, they're lost in the world, they don't have any guidance, and they initially give a lot of pushback when you start setting boundaries because they're like 100%.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

I've never gotten this before. And it's like I have dogs have really come after me for like simple things. Going in a crate is a prime example. Yes. Because the dog's like, absolutely not. You're gonna make me get in a crate? Like, you're not gonna bribe me with cookies and chicken and steak and then eventually give up. Like, no, like that's not how that that's the first thing I work on when the dogs come into my home is getting into a crate with leash pressure. Yeah. Because the dogs need to understand, like, hey, like, I'm not gonna nothing bad's happening. Yeah, I'm just asking you to go in a crate, but I I'm not necessarily like I'm telling you to go on a crate. You have to go into the crate, you have to, yeah. And this is kind of the first boundary. And the first boundary is gonna be going in your crate, not bolting out of the crate. Like, that's literally my first training session with most of my training dogs.

SPEAKER_05 40:03

Yes, exactly. I love thresholds. Love them. I love them. I wish more people did them. I love thresholds and like a true threshold, not just like an obedience threshold.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Yes, I do a lot of like when the dogs are in my home, like cooking dinner and crate doors are open. Yeah, like you have to hold yourself in the crate. Yeah. Because you're not released.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

I will literally go and like sit in front of the crate for 10 minutes until the dog has like actually settled and I'm like, I will, I'm more patient than you.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Yeah, I have nothing to do here all day. You're my only job. It's literally my job. I will wait for you to calm down before I let you out of the crater. And I think that's the nice thing with like when you do send your dog to a good board and train, right? Of people go like, well, those behaviors aren't gonna translate immediately into the new owner's home. No, they're not. But you know what they're not gonna have to do is sit there for an hour. Maybe it's 10 minutes. Yeah, because I put in the dog understands, like, hey, it's not gonna the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 40:59

Same rules

Stop Letting Dogs Rehearse Bad Habits

SPEAKER_05 41:00

apply. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I've been having a bit of um fallout with my reactive dogs, and so it kind of brought up this like thought process for me of allowing the dogs to get too many reps doing the problem behavior with you or that individual person. And for me, kind of my first step in behavioral mod is I'm stopping the behavior. Like this behavior ends today. I will not be the dog trainer who's gonna get a clip for social media of me holding the leash while this dog is being reactive and me just standing there and letting it happen.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

And my mom and I have actually talked about this of like, oh, like we should, especially with like the easy reactive cases where like the dog's super explosive and like just crazy reactive, but it's just like literally the dog just doing it for fun. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, like we should get a before clip. And I'm like, every time I've had this conversation, I'm like, I can't do it because as soon as the leash is in my hand, my body physically won't let me have let the dog have a reaction.

SPEAKER_05 42:02

No, literally. The only way that I'm able to get the clip is if the owner is holding the dog.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

But even then, I'm like, give me the leash because this can't be happening.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

I'm like, go ahead and walk that way. And I'm like recording them, like, okay, okay, come back this way. Yeah, like not allowing the dog to get reps of practicing the behavior that you're trying to work through with the owner. And that's something that I've been kind of working with my reactive dogs with, is they're like, Meg, we're we're having to go back to like more of the structured training sessions. I can't just go for a long neighborhood walk with my dog. And I'm like, well, I can do that with your dog because your dog knows that that shit don't fly. As soon as you take the leash.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

That shit don't fly. Or even if you're in the like, we have a lot of dogs like that. Like, people will be like, oh, like my dog's being super reactive. Like, can we please do a lesson? And I show up and the dog will not do it.

SPEAKER_05 42:56

Yes, ma'am. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 42:58

And it's a conversation. Like, I have it a lot with clients of being like, you guys have to follow through. And they go, like, okay, like, I does it like really translate. I'm like, yes, dogs are really good. I'll have dogs that come back for boarding that are horrible with their owners because they do not follow through at all. Dogs wearing an e-color like a necklace, just so bad. They literally pull up to my property, the dogs get out of the car and they sit perfectly by the owners. And every single time the owner's like, the dog never acts like this. And I'm like, well, yeah, just because like the dog understands, like, that stuff's not gonna fly here. They're so smart. They're so smart when it comes to that stuff. And they're honestly like so manipulative. 100%. Yeah. Because I also have like obviously, I'm sure you guys have had it, like dogs listening to the wife and not the husband, because wife is gonna actually put their foot down and husband's a big softy and lets the dog do whatever they want. Um, and I have to have those conversations with clients of like, okay, like, sorry, husband, you have to not cuddle with the dog on the couch. And they're like, What do you mean? And I'm like, you know, all the problems you're having? Yeah, it's all because of that.

unknown 43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

And sometimes when I get people who I know aren't going to do it, and let's say the dog's not going to, you know, hurt somebody, I'm like, fine, but here's your trade-off. You know, you can't be texting me when you have family over and your dog is walking across their laps while they're sitting on the couch.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

You're not the client I'm answering the 2 a.m. phone call for, sorry. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 44:25

I'm sorry, you've lost that privilege. Yeah. So it's like a trade-off of okay, if you're not willing to set these boundaries with your dog, then like these are the expectations that you need to have.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Yeah, you do have to be okay with that because it's also not fair for us as dog trainers to punish those dogs.

SPEAKER_05 44:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Because they the owners complain and then they're like, Well, can we drop the dog off back for I've had a couple of conversations with like the dog jumping is like a big one where they're not correcting the dog consistently enough and they drop off the dog for a refresher and they're like, the jumping's really bad. I'm like, I'm not going to correct your dog. Because it's not fair for me to correct your dog when you're not going to correct them at home. Because me correcting them high one time and them being like, Cool, like that's all I needed, and then going home and like being allowed to jump, that's not fair.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

You got anything to say, Toma?

SPEAKER_00 45:17

I mean, I think it boils down to good dog training's honestly pretty boring. Like just the reps, the accountability, the follow-through, and a lot of people are not willing to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

It doesn't have to be always like active training sessions. Like sometimes it's literally just the basics and like the little things uh it adds up, you know, like threshold manners or not allowing the dog to jump.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

I think you're very good at motivating clients and kind of meeting them where they're at, you know.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

I think you're good at the trade-off, right? Of being like, oh, well, if you don't want to do this, like this is kind of where you're gonna see that fallout, but like let's keep working on it and like kind of getting the owners to eventually be like, oh wait, actually, maybe we don't want the dog to do that. Yeah, you're like the nice guy. I'm the bad cop.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

You gotta ease them into it.

SPEAKER_05 46:08

Me and Angela are like, no, no, punish him.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah. Yeah. I think too though, like, I'm spoiled in the fact that uh I'm the only like dog trainer in the area. So I'm like, if you don't want to do it this way, that's really fine. I can recommend you to someone in LA. But yeah, that's it's four and a half hours. So if you are that dedicated, you might as well just come to me. And then most of the time they're like, oh, okay. I guess we'll come to you and listen to you.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Damn, that's funny. That's a easy sales pitch right there.

SPEAKER_05 46:38

Yeah, yeah. I definitely

Client Boundaries That Prevent Burnout

SPEAKER_05 46:41

like having a business and having a bunch of trainers got me stuck in the cycle of like we just take on anybody, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Yeah, and I think a lot of trainers get there though. Like I think when I initially like was kind of getting into dog training, going through the school, there was this thing where they were like, oh, well, like to do this type of training, like you need to ask for eight weeks. And I'm like, okay, but the clients that I have aren't gonna go for eight weeks. And so when I got home as a young dog trainer, I was like, I need to take everyone because if I turn someone away, they're gonna go and tell everyone not to take their dog to me because I turn them away. And so also dog training in and of itself, when you're young, it's like kind of not inconsistent, but you're always worried, like, when's the next dog gonna come? When's the next dog gonna come? So you worry about turning down dogs because you're like, oh no, like I don't know when this next dog is coming. And so maybe you take a dog that you're not comfortable with, or you take a client that you're not comfortable with, or you know that they're not gonna follow through because you're like, Well, this I'm a dog trainer, I'm supposed to take this dog.

SPEAKER_05 47:48

Yeah, this is my job. And also, we kind of like know the alternatives, right? Especially if you're like, Well, I'm really the only dog trainer here. So if I tell you no, like I know you're probably not gonna be super successful.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:01

For me, it was I was like early on in my career, I had to pay my bills.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 48:07

Yeah, I didn't have the luxury of not taking clients that didn't create train, you know, and they would be fine with me create training, anything like that, but they weren't bought into you know what I really believed in and what I was kind of preaching to them. They're just like, okay, young girl, yeah, sure, whatever you say. And so in the early stages of my career, I had just the absolute worst people and the absolute best people, but the worst, the bad ones were the ones who were taking all of my energy away from my good clients.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

And they're the ones always hitting you up for advice, they're the ones always asking, like asking these questions, but also then like fighting what you say of like well, but I'm not going to do that. It's like, then why are you asking?

SPEAKER_05 48:55

So why are we here? Yeah. And I also got into kind of like weird relationships with clients where they're like treating me like they're kids almost.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Or they're like best friend.

SPEAKER_05 49:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

That's become or they're therapist. I am not a marriage counselor. That is a big thing that I say. I say that to like my clients up front. Like they'll be fighting. I'm like, guys, do this at home. Like, this is not what we're here for. We're here to learn how to train your dog. I always I always say, sorry, I don't train husbands.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

Nope. No husbands, no kids. If I did, I'd make a lot more money than I do now. But yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:31

No, I think it's it's really important, and that is something that I've learned over, you know, the eight years that I've been doing it. But I had that little flashback moment where I was like, I have to help this person. And of course, Shane is like, Fuck no, take that person. You know that person's gonna suck. And I'm like, You're right. And the hard thing is I don't have to take a look at the person.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

That person's gonna suck. And then what happens is because I mean I've had this happen to us where their dog goes and bites someone and they go, Well, I trained with Megan Toma or I trained with Angela, and I'm like, Okay, you took one lesson. That's that's not training with me. You do none of the management, and now I'm reaping the consequences of people thinking that this that's my work. No, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 50:13

Yeah, yeah. I've definitely I have really, really good clients now because I have people that come to me because they believe in what I believe in. Yeah, you know, and that's kind of the magic of social media and the podcast and everything that I kind of put out there is I'm attracting the right people. And that's something that I talk to my virtual shadow students all the time is I'm like, get really clear on your values, who you are, and who you want to serve. Because if you are unclear, you're gonna take on anybody and they're gonna burn you out. Like, that is why people are getting so burnt out in this industry, is because they feel like they can't set boundaries with clients or they feel like they have to take on every single client that comes their way because of that like scarcity mindset. But it's almost kind of like a little test from the universe of like, how desperate are you?

SPEAKER_02 51:08

You know, I found because like I just started not just, but like maybe two years ago. I used to be like, if you wanted to sign up for a boring train, my first availability is today. I might have five other boring trains, but I will kill myself to fit you in. Because I in my life, I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to lose out on this. Yeah, if I make you pay a deposit and wait two months, like how do I know you're gonna actually want to come back? And so I definitely hit a burnout stage a couple years ago where I was like, this isn't doable. Like, if you are really wanting to train your dog, and people will try to guilt you into taking their dog early, they'll be like, Well, are you sure? Like, he's really struggling, and it's really important as a young dog trainer to kind of hold up those boundaries and be like, no, like I'm so sorry. We can maybe do some privates before, or you can come to group classes, but if you're serious about doing a board and train, this is my first opening. And that had saved me from a lot of burnout of just being like, no. And I like surprisingly, I'll book out three, four, five months. Yeah. And two years ago, I wouldn't think that that was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

Yeah, and that's kind of the thing is like there's always somebody else. And if you're putting yourself out there and you're kind of sticking true to who you are and who you feel you're capable of helping, the right people are gonna find you.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Yeah, and the right people are willing to wait for you to have an opening.

SPEAKER_05 52:30

Yep. Yeah, and that's something that I preach all the time, you know. Like people are willing to wait three to five months to do a board and train with me because they want to send their dog to me. And I'm like incredibly grateful for that because, you know, as a 25-year-old, first starting out, I was I couldn't even pay for my groceries.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 52:51

You know, I was like, I'll take literally anything. This aggressive dog that everybody else is, you know, denying, I'll take that dog. And the thing is, I did, and I did train them, you know, so it also kind of like fueled this like I can do it, it works, I can do it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

But now like you said, that it's a test of the universe, though, and it it generally will bite you in the butt.

SPEAKER_05 53:15

Always, every time, yeah, always, yeah. And you know, you get a little like gut feeling, you're like, oh, this this person is I just have to say like the one wrong thing, and then I'm like, oh no, this is gonna be bad.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Yeah, this is the the oh, like I my the big ones I give me are like really aggressive dogs, and they're like, This is my baby, and I'm like, how's this your baby? He just attacks them on, yeah. I'm sorry, like that's that's realistic for me.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah, if the client doesn't take the dog seriously, that's a huge red flag. Huge red flag.

SPEAKER_05 53:45

But that's the biggest thing is like I don't take aggressive dogs, but if somebody was like really willing to be like, hey, I know that this dog has potential to be unsafe. But like just like you said, the people who are about to euthanize their dog for behavioral issues and are like, this is kind of my last hope.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Like, those are the people that typically for me always kill their boredom trains, like they always do so good with the dog after the boredom train. Yeah. Because they're like, they're willing at that moment to be like, it's either this or I'm gonna put my dog down.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Yeah, they're all in.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Yeah, they're like, this is the last resort. And I always feel bad that it's people's last resort because that's like a horrible situation to have to be in. And a lot of the times those are the clients though that really put the work forward and they're like, I want to keep this dog here with me, and I will do whatever it takes. Yeah. And those are my most like consistent and successful

Green Flags And Hard Truths

SPEAKER_02 54:40

clients.

SPEAKER_05 54:41

Okay, so we talked about a lot of red flags. What are some green flags with owners?

SPEAKER_02 54:49

I think one of my green flags is definitely people kind of reaching out before it becomes a big issue. Yes. Like my clients that are like, you know, like I don't know if it's this if it's that big of a deal, but like my dog is kind of growling at me on the couch. Or sometimes he like doesn't want to go in the crate and like I really have to fight with him. And I'm like, okay, like I'm glad we're reaching out now. And like they're like, I think I kind of want to like nip it in the butt now because I just kind of see where this, like, where they they can truly see where it's going and they don't want it to go that far. Yeah. Clients that have maybe done research on other dog trainers. Like, I have a couple of clients that will come out and be like, Yeah, like I got the mini educator e-collar and I started conditioning the dog, but I just wanted to make sure like I'm doing it correctly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:37

Or those are my favorite people. I'm like, oh yes. Or like a dog, they're like, I've taught all of the things, and I'm like, Oh, I don't have to do obedience.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

The pitbull I just sent home, yeah, uh, he knew everything. I loved it. Down heel, knew pretty much like a decent recall outside of like when there was a prey object. And I'm like, you mean it just have to e-color condition your dog and that's all you want? And teach him to cheat. Yeah, this is the best day. Yeah. Um, and people who, if you do come to me with a serious dog that maybe you adopted from the shelter or um had just gotten the dog, like people who are like, no, like I want to drop the dog off like right away. Right now, yeah. Like, because I get a lot of people like, well, I just got this dog, I don't want to drop him off because that's gonna be sad. And he's already gotten like tossed around from the shelter from different homes. My clients are like, no, like I need boundaries now because this dog's like going to walk all over me. Those are the people like, oh, thank you. You like see where this is going and you totally are on board with everything because you want your dog to be successful.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

Yeah, that's how Phoebe's owner is. He like had her for a week and he was like, You're a lot.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

I have clients ask, like, they'll call for dog training and they'll be like, I so I've had the dog for like two days. Like, when do you think is like a good time to start training? And like yesterday. Two days ago. Two days ago when you got brought the dog home.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

I think that's the best because then you haven't like repped out all the bad behaviors with the owner.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

And the owners really like don't understand them. Like, the more your dog practices these bad habits that maybe you're not correcting because you don't really know how, the harder these are going to be, and the longer your training is gonna take because especially like a hard-headed dog.

SPEAKER_05 57:17

Like Phoebe is so stubborn. She would be so bad. I'd tell her, I'm like, you would be so bad if your dad didn't send you to training right away.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

If she was like a year old, or like if he had just waited another six months, he would be menace. That would be she would be a behavior mod at that case, probably.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

Oh, for sure. She would be reactive, she would be like, she like grabs your arm, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

And like she's still a puppy, but like but if you as a dawn trainer see that country progressing, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:46

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Or even like how over aroused she gets with the other dogs, you know, like when she's playing with the other dogs, like I'm gonna be able to be like, hey, she takes the chase game to a not fun place with other dogs, you know, and I can kind of like give him those pointers, and you can set him up to be successful so bad things don't happen. I love, I love people like that. Like they just go and pick up the dog and then drop it off with a trainer. Or like puppies.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Oh, oh, they go pick up the puppy and then bring it to me. I'm like, amazing. The place I was helping out with in Dixon, um, they have a deal with a doodle breeder in Napa where this breeder will literally send 10 week old puppies to the training facility to get like a puppy jumpstart camp done for like six weeks. So we do a deal with like the potty training, leash walking, socialization for like from the puppies, like 10 to 16 weeks. And it is such a great program because I'm like, you mean I just get this little potato that knows nothing and I can mold it to exactly how I want it, and then it like goes to its owners and like has a good start? Like, this is amazing.

SPEAKER_05 58:51

Yeah, no, literally the best. So, what's some advice for owners that you would give of kind of like boundaries that they can set in the home with their dogs? I know we kind of touched on that a little bit, and maybe like when to find a trainer.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Yeah, so I think some good boundaries, especially if you're having like any problems with the dog, is first you need to be creating the dog. And if you cannot get your dog in a crate, that's definitely a sign that we need to contact a trainer. Um if we're being able to crate the dog and we are working on some training in the home, then that's amazing. Crating your dog when you are home is something that I don't think a lot of people are doing.

SPEAKER_05 59:32

They're like, I hundred percent, I want my dog with me.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

And that in and of itself causes a lot of separation anxiety, a lot of destruction in the home or in its crate when you go to leave. So teaching the dog like you don't get to be around me all the time, like some separation there is very healthy. Uh, and honestly, kind of treating your dog less like your perfect little pet and more like an active member in society. And we just live a life, and I'm not gonna spoil you. Yeah. Um, time to find a trainer again, if you can't get your dog in a crate, like that's a really big red flag, and that's like we need to seek out a trainer immediately. And I always tell people, you want to try to find a trainer before you are seeing really big issues. So, like, if your dog is like, if you're having a hard time getting your dog off the couch, but it's maybe not doing like it's maybe side-eyeing you a little bit, and like you eventually can get the dog off the couch. Maybe time to contact a trainer, even if it's not for a porn training. Maybe it's just private lessons of teaching you guys how to work through that because working through that in the moment is going to stop the dog from resource guarding the couch in the future, just because you're teaching the dog, like, hey, this isn't acceptable. And honestly, if you have a dog, find a dog trainer most of the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:47

Unless you have a collaborador if you got a dog, find a dog trainer.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Even if it's just for privates, like, even if it's just like, hey, like, I just want to get a couple of privates done, make sure I'm on the right path to make sure nothing bad crops up in the future. Yeah. Like pre-emptive and pro being proactive with your dog is the biggest possible green flag you can be.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:08

Yeah. Something that I'm seeing a lot of is people using ChatGPT to train their dog, which is crazy. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

Like AI will never have my job.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:18

No, I literally I was texting Danielle that, and I was like, wow, we have job security. And she was like, Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

I was cleaning out a shitty crate at 2 a.m. and I have a dog that wants to eat me at home.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:30

Chap PGT could never Yeah, and like the advice that it was giving somebody was just absolutely horrible. It was like, you shouldn't crate train.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Because a lot of that stuff is gonna be based off, and that's like another thing. A lot of the stuff that you're gonna find on the internet is going to be the force-free version of everything. I'm not saying you can't train a dog with force-free. I think good force-free trainers exist. I think certain dogs can be trained with force-free. The majority most likely cannot, with them with an average owner. Yes. And I encourage people to talk to multiple trainers. If you're talking to a trainer that is like, oh, I'm gonna take your dog for two weeks and it wants to eat people and it's gonna come back perfectly fine. Run, please. That is not a good dog trainer. Yeah, you should be looking at dog trainers, especially if you have a problem dog that are going to be honest with you in a polite way and tell you that, hey, this is probably gonna require lifelong management. That is not a crazy thing to hear with a behavioral case.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:30

Yeah. Or also, I have had a couple uncomfy conversations of, you know, dogs who have bitten people or people who have come to me and are like, what do I do? My dog is biting people and they're like scared of their dog. I have the conversation of you're either going to have to become a dog trainer. Like that's the level of skill that you need to be able to have this dog, or you need to be considered behavioral euthanasia.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Yeah, 100%. And I've had that exact conversation and I've had it go both ways. I've had it where really great clients of mine had a six-month-old puppy, had bit three people, two people in the face, one person in the hand. They called me because they were going out of town and they were like, I don't know what to do with this dog. And they did my puppy camp, and she's a decent dog. Like, she's still very difficult. They manage the hell out of her. If she is outside, she's in a muzzle with a prong, an e-collar, a double leash, and but they are 100% okay living with her like that. And I had another client where I had the dog for a board and train, and I called her and I said, I don't know what to tell you. This dog is going to kill a kid. This dog is going to kill a dog. You're in your 70s, you're you want a dog that you can take to the dog park and take off leash, and this dog is going to hurt someone. And she was like, Well, I don't know what to do. Like, I can't send the dog back to the shelter. And I said, It unfortunately, it would be my recommendation to euthanize. Like, it's just not fair to you or the dog to put someone else in that situation. Yeah. And even like the dog was crazy, like, food motivated, but like almost in a bad way. Like, you would switch into uh intermediate rewards and he would go after you because he was like, What do you mean I don't get rewarded for this set? Yes. And he would go after you, and like you would correct him, he would come back tenfold, and then you would see a kid on a bike and no level of correction would fix it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:21

We had a dog that was like that, like the food almost was too much conflict. Yeah. You know, I couldn't even use it as a reward.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

And so I called her and we had the conversation, and she asked me to take him in because she was like, she would have only had him for like a week, and he had gotten out and like really hurt another dog.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

And I took him in, and she we went to the shelter together like six months later, and we found her a very appropriate dog that can go off leash and do the things. And she put that dog in training, the new shelter dog, day one. She said, Okay, thank you for helping me pick him. Now he's gonna go live with you for six weeks.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:58

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:59

I know it's like it's such a tough place to be. And I've had that conversation with a couple people, and it's not fun. I don't enjoy it, you know, but I always go into that conversation with the the place of I don't think anybody else is gonna tell you this.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

And I think it's unethical of people to take clients' money when they're going to uh either one recommend euthanasia eventually, or they're gonna be like, oh no, I'm gonna fix it, and then send the dog home and the dog is not fixed.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Yeah, I think that's a huge red flag for clients looking at potential like dog trainers. Like there are no guarantees.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

So the only guarantee that I have is that I work with your dog and you. That is the only guarantee that I offer.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:47

Yeah. I tell people I get as far as I can in the amount of time that I have your dog. Yeah. You know, you can't promise and I'll work with you.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:55

Yeah, I can't promise that your super reactive dog is gonna be off leash in three weeks.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

That's a crazy ask. That's a crazy ask for my labs.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:04

I know. I know. And I've almost I've kind of switched over into like even more paranoia where I'm like, I don't think any of you should have your dogs off leash. Like very few of my clients am I actually like, yeah, your dog is cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Trust me, I have had the preach to the choir moment of like, I believe like there are certain times where I'm like every off-leash dog should be muzzled. Like if you're gonna have your dog off leash, it should be a muzzle, even if it's the most friendly Labrador, because it's a dog. Yeah. Like I just have you see it every day in the news, you see it every day on social media. Another dog killed someone, another dog killed another dog, another dog hurt a child, another dog ran over and attacked a goat. And I'm just like, you know what would fix this? Muzzles.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:43

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

And not letting your dog off leash if it doesn't have a recall, please. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:47

But it also kind of goes to like the boundary thing. People don't want to set any sort of boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

And they don't want to tell their dog no. For those little things, right? Like, oh, the pit bull I just at Home Debo, you guys met him. Like playing, and he's getting on top of dogs and like pinning to the ground. And it's like, okay, like we tell him no there because over time that's going to escalate.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

And people just are waiting too long to tell them no and to set that boundary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:12

Boundaries, guys. You gotta have boundaries with dogs and people. Well, thank you very much, Angela,

Where To Find Angela

SPEAKER_05 1:07:20

for ranting with me.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:21

I knew that you would be the perfect.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:25

Um, tell the people where they can find you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

Uh, on Instagram, a greer2323, and then um on Facebook, Angela. We also have a Labrador Breeding program, Lone Desert Labradors for service dogs and good family pets.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:39

Yeah, we're gonna have to do a podcast on ethical breeding.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:44

100%. I'm down. We got Danielle's perspective. She's the rescue perspective. Now we can get your perspective.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:49

I would love that. Yeah. All right, y'all. Thanks so much for being here. Say goodnight to Toma.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

Good night. I was already half asleep. He survived. He survived. Angela drove like four and a half hours, five hours straight into a podcast. Shout out to her.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:05

Yeah. All right, guys. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week.