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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Crate Training, E-Collar Accountability, And Calm Routines For Real Life
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Leaving a four-month-old puppy loose at night can feel like the “nice” choice until it turns into chewed remotes, fence-line chaos, or a true medical emergency. We take you inside one of our weekly community calls and talk through what to do when a puppy crates perfectly for the trainer, but the home routine falls apart at 2 a.m. because someone can’t tolerate the noise. You’ll hear exactly how we frame the conversation with owners, why supervision matters so much, and how to draw a professional boundary when follow-through isn’t happening.
From there, we get into the messy middle of e-collar training: the dog who isn’t food motivated, doesn’t want to play, and “shuts down” when the leash goes on because the old routine meant walks and freedom. We break down pressure and release, how to keep training fair, and why it often gets worse before it gets better when you raise standards. We also talk sport dog training and agility realities, including how to fade an e-collar for trials using a repeatable pre-trial routine, equipment shedding, and clean accountability that doesn’t depend on the collar being visible.
We round it out with practical behavior coaching for real life: building clear training windows and an off switch, teaching neutrality around people, stopping lunging before it becomes a bite risk, and handling puppy mouthiness and redirect biting without accidentally rehearsing bad habits. If you care about dog behavior, puppy training, reactive dog rehab, and clear leash handling, you’ll get a lot out of this one.
Visit us on the website here to see what we've got going on and how you can join our pack of good dogs and owners.
Welcome And Call Format
SPEAKER_08Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer Podcast. My name is Meg, and I am Doc Trainer. This week's episode is a recording from our weekly community calls. You guys are going to talk about the community all the time. So I figured I would give you a little tweak of what the doctor calls look like. We talked about everything from how to work through doing reactive copy finding and factories with our clients. So find out the drill, grab yourself a great doctor.
SPEAKER_09How are we doing? Good. Good. I figured we'll do we'll start off with a QA. And then if we have time, we can work some dogs. You have any questions to start us off?
SPEAKER_00I do I do have a question. Yes.
Night Crate Battles And Safety Risks
SPEAKER_00And um the owners have like a crazy, kind of crazy schedule where they're both nurses. One works in the morning or during the day, one works at night. And so, and then the husband wanted the puppy train. The wife is kind of like eh about it. So she's not very helpful. And the husband's kind of discouraged. But one big thing, he was the puppy does great when it's here. I do day trains with it once a week.
SPEAKER_09Also, the fact that the wife is the one who doesn't want to do the training is crazy because normally it's the other way around.
SPEAKER_00I know, and she's the one that wanted to keep the puppy. And yeah, it's it's a weird thing, and the poor husband is just trying his hardest. And he but, anyways, he he works seven days and he has seven days off. So we kind of do every other week where we do one-on-ones and just where it works around his schedule. The puppy's really good. Um, when she's here with me, she's great in the kennel, but their issue right now is the kennel at night. And now the wife is just letting the dog out of the kennel, and he was like, We're I'm trying my hardest. And she hates when he's she how he the dog sorry howls at 2 a.m. And she just says, Let it out, go out, let it outside. So she said, just leave it outside. Well, the puppy, um, now it seems to be having too much freedom or chewed up a remote and everything. So I guess my question is, I told him like all the things, like put the crate in your room, like um put a blanket over the crate, like I've you know, tried all the things. I'm uh just and he just is like, I don't think we can do that. And so he just stared at me, and I just kind of stared at him, and I was feeling positive, and I was like, Well, I guess you just gotta pick your battles. So I don't know, I don't know how you would handle that. I feel a little I know what I would do, but like I don't know what to he's gonna pick up in about 45 minutes, the puppy. We've been doing a day train all day. So I'm just trying to figure out what you would say to him for next steps. Like, I I just think the puppy has too much freedom, so yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_09Um, how old is the puppy? Uh she's only four months, and they're leaving her out at night? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, I always like uh share the very scary reality. Like, I've had multiple clients whose dogs have died because they don't want to crate them when they're not supervising them. Like, I've had a puppy that I trained that I got into medication and died. Like, I've had a dog get an obstruction over chewing up plastic pieces and died. Like, I would I would literally say that and I would be very like honest and be like, you know, I'm here as the professional to like give you my advice on what you need to do. Whether you decide to take that advice or not is entirely up to you. Um but I wouldn't stress too much over it, like all you can do is tell them and teach them. And if they don't want to do it, that's totally fine, right? It's like, okay, well, the dog isn't coming and staying with you and waking you up at 2 a.m. If it were affecting the dog at day trains with you, then I would be like, either you do this or you can't come to training with me anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay, cool. I was thinking I was gonna do all those scary say all the scary things to them. So I just wanted to see if that was a good approach. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, of course. I'm always very transparent with people, and it's like, I don't, I don't love to say that I don't love to talk about dogs dying, but like that is just a reality, you know. And with all of those people, I've had that conversation with them of like you have to create them, and they're like, but I feel bad. And I'm like, you know what's really gonna feel bad when something happens to your dog and it's your fault because you didn't create them.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, and there's and in their backyard, they have dogs on all four points of their yard and two pit bulls that are just barking constantly. And I also like explain like this you can't just have your puppy out here listening to that because it's you know it's gonna learn all those things, and she's gonna bark at the fence all day long, yeah. So all the things she ignores it right now, and she's like pretty oblivious to everything around her, but she's a dopey puppy, yeah.
SPEAKER_09I mean, that's really all you can do. Yeah, okay, perfect. Thank you. You're very welcome.
When Training Motivation Looks Like Shutdown
SPEAKER_03Well, I have one. Um, yes, hi. So I've been training them with the e-crawler, like we talked last time, but said is shutting down a lot, like he's not. And then I was wondering because I think the thing, the main thing with him is that especially here in Bike Home, he is not used to like putting the leash on and not going out. That was our routine before we started training him. So whenever I put the leash on him, he's like, Okay, let's go for a walk. And then when he doesn't, he gets frustrated. So I was wondering if maybe I should start having training sessions without the e-crawler, just like training sessions to get him used to this is what we do sometimes in the in with the leash, and then try e-crawler, or if there's anything else I can do, because he's just not doing it, like he's doing the husky behavior of just like fast down. I am not gonna go, and I don't give a damn about what you think. And then when he does, it's because I I I keep doing it because like we're gonna do it, and you're gonna have fun. And he does have fun, but not a lot. He's like, Okay, fine, I'll go to place, I'll do what you want me to do. I don't want food, I don't care, but you know what I mean? Very like a very like a oh, okay, whatever, lady. Yeah, so I don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, um, uh, that is kind of what a lot of training looks like sometimes when we don't have a dog that is motivated by anything. And I have um I have a board and train here right now that is a little bit similar, and the only way that I'm able to motivate this dog is by pressure and release. It gets worse before it gets better, you know. So, like I would always have the e-collar on. You don't always have to use it in every session, but I want you to try and work through that. Keep going then. Okay, keep going. It gets worse before it gets better, it will get better, and as long as you're being fair and like he knows the expectation, I think he's frustrated because you guys are now holding him accountable in the environment that he wasn't previously held accountable in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that's totally it. Like he's just it's not even like a I'm not doing anything mean, it's not taking forever. It's like a five-minute little training session, easy enough. He's just like, I put the leash on and he's like, front door, let's go. And I'm like, no, and then he gets pissed.
SPEAKER_09So yeah, yes, okay. He's just getting frustrated because like he's his expectations are like, I get to do this, I get to act this way, and now we're like, hey, you don't get to do that anymore, you know. And so he's like, Well, I don't want to do anything that you want me to do because I want to do what I want to do, you know. Okay, um, yeah, that's keep going, it will get better. Okay, you're kind of setting like the new expectations. So, like, for example, um, I have a board and train here, her name is Daisy. She will take food every now and then, but it is not super motivating to her, and then I'm starting to hold her to like new standards. So before I didn't tell her to go to place, I was just kind of like free shaping place, and like she would go and lay on it on her own. But now I'm making it a command. So I'm telling her place, you go to place and you have to lay down. And I cannot lure her into a down, I cannot leash pressure her into a down, like she's fighting me on the leash, she's fighting me on the luring. At some point, I have to hold her accountable to like a behavior, but she's like, Well, I don't want to do this right now, so I'm gonna fight you. So there's a bit of like, I'm just gonna hold constant leash pressure until you go into a down. Is it the most fun session? Absolutely not, but it's gonna be valuable. Like if her mom takes her out somewhere and wants to put her into a down, she's gonna be able to do it with leash pressure because I worked through that like difficult part of the training, you know, and that's kind of like the tough thing, and why dog trainers don't like to train huskies, and she is also a husky mix. I will tell you that. She's I think she's like a husky, like pit bull. So she has like the stubbornness of like a pit bull, and then like the stubbornness of a husky, and I'm like girls of everybody, please, please, yeah. So it's kind of it's kind of ugly and boring, and like it's not that much fun, but like I know as a dog trainer that eventually I'm gonna be able to say down and just give her a little bit of leash pressure, and she'll go into it down because she's like, Okay, you know, but you kind of have to work through that of like, hey, I know you don't really want to do this, but I also don't want you reacting on our walks and barking at everybody at the fence, so I have to give you more structure because you know your behaviors are this.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I hear you. That's good. It's just it's hard. I was struggling to know what to do because it's they're so different. So, like, she is so happy with food. So she's like, I'll do anything you want. You want me to like lay down for 10 hours and cry? I'll do that. Just give me food, yeah. And then, but then she can be left alone, and he's fine alone, but he cannot be, you know, it's kind of like uh they're both so different. And I'm like, Oh my goodness. And then I was wondering if maybe I should do something to try to motivate him more. But he doesn't like to play. He doesn't like I try to play, I tried food. He just, if I if every time he does something, I take him out for a walk, he'll be happy. That's the only thing that he wants, you know. And I think that's why it was so hard because it was so much easier there with you guys because he would go to the car, he's going to a new place, he gets there, he sees new people. He's like, Yeah, I want to do things, this is fun, and now he's left from home. Like, this is boring, and I want to go out, like, I don't want to be here, so yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09Take your training sessions out in public too, like, bring a place called to the park and like do some sessions out in the park, do them in new places.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's happier, but also more reactive. So it's kind of like uh with the e-collar, should I do that? Because I was I was debating if I should do that or not with a collar, because his working level is much higher outside than it is like in the house because he doesn't he doesn't give a fuck sometimes about me.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I would just play around with it, you know, like give it a try, see how it goes. If it's like not good, then go back in steps. Okay, I'll try. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.
Fading The E-Collar For Sport Trials
SPEAKER_05How do you start um fading e-collar for sport? We were chatting about it in our agility class last night, and like our coach lets us use e-collar in class, but they're banned at trials, and we had a dog in there that like is very e-collar-wise for like recall and stuff, and so we're all struggling.
SPEAKER_09Um, you mean faded out like pre-trial? That's where some sort of like routine comes into where you're shedding your equipment. Um, I don't know if you you guys would have to like do that in the parking lot. So, like what we do for PSA is like we start the session off with uh the dog has all of the equipment on. So the dog has the e-collar. Um and then we go into like our pre-training session ritual, which is I take the dog to go potty, they go potty, we're standing there, I go, Are you ready? Bark, bark, bark. I ask for some behaviors. Um, and then typically, like while the dog is barking, I'll go and like clip the e-collar off and like call them in to heal or something. Like I'm distracting them, clipping the e-collar off, and then we'll go onto the field. Um, for you guys, that would have to be done like in the parking lot, I'm assuming. Um, but you practice it in training, shedding the equipment. That way you do that before trial. Um, in training, we can have two e-collars on. So the dog sees you unclip the collar, but they still have another e-collar on. And then you go into training and you're able to hold the dog accountable in training. So the dog goes, Oh, I saw her unclip the e-collar, but I'm still being held accountable. So when you go into your routine pre-trial and you clip off the e-collar, the dog has the expectation that they still had the e-collar on.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_09Okay, that makes sense. So some sort of ritual before every single training session of shedding that e-collar. Yeah, I uh like there's different camps of people, but I also like to practice training without an e-collar. Um, I think one of the things that like Toma struggled with and passing his PDC is Hawk is very e-collar-wise, and Toma was stimming him on all of his outs. And so when Hawk didn't get stimmed for his out in trial, he's like, Oh, I don't have to out. So it took Toma a couple tries of like, okay, you have to out, and that's what we did. Um, shedding the e-collar and then also um having the e-collar in your hand and walking up and just putting it on the dog, you know, so like Toma would have the e-collar, Hawk would be like biting a decoy. Toma would walk up, tell him out, and then like put the e-collar on him. That's not gonna help you with recall because you have to like walk up to the dog, but yeah, the that's the extent that we had to go through to like teach Hawk that even if you don't have the e-collar on, like we will still hold you accountable. Right. So in the pretrial routine, you're typically gonna stim the dog for something so that it's like, hey, I'm holding you accountable. I'm holding you accountable, bark, bark, bark, or like ready, let's go, spin, whatever you want. Unclip the collar, okay, let's go walk onto the field. Yeah, okay. You'll also see like putting the equipment on activates dogs as well. So I don't know if you've seen people like slip the fur savers over the dog's head and it cues that, like, hey, we're starting our training session or we're starting our like pre-trial routine, but that would be really helpful too, as well. I don't are they allowed to have like what can they have for agility?
SPEAKER_05Most people just go in with like a slip lead.
SPEAKER_09Are you holding on to it?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you like you walk into the ring with your dog on leash and then like put them in a start line stay, take off the leash and like toss it to a leash runner. Okay, and then start your routine.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, so you could do slip over the dog's head, starts that pretrial routine.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_09I that's interesting. I didn't think uh agility people were down for e-callers.
SPEAKER_05Uh it really depends on the club you're in. Um I definitely find them like the vibe is kind of like, yeah, like I know you'll use it responsibly, is like kind of the response you'll get from most people these days. I got you, but it's still banned at trial. So yeah.
SPEAKER_09On the property, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you like can't get caught with one. I mean, I I'm not the one struggling, like, I'm it's kind of interesting you talking through the like routine of it because I just like walk my dog out like in a middle position. Because I'm like, I don't want to give you the option to take an obstacle. This is the drill. This is how we go into the field, and then we start. And I've been doing that from the beginning, yeah. Um, but like there's a girl in my class right now who's just like her dog has like a little bit of hound in him, and he is just like air scenting and just zooming around. So she's like, I need to use the e-collar, but I will need to fade it.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I would be I would be very strict with the dog in training sessions of like walking up, like you guys can all kind of stand around, and like that dog has to be in heel and like stimming for like sniffing or dropping its head, you know. So like I do, I do like a focused heel onto the training field every single time we do club. That's my routine is like I will be off field, I have my toy hidden. I look at Muffin, I say, Are you ready? Bark, bark, bark. I'll go into some random behaviors. Oh, yay, call her into a heel. If she drops her head, I'm stimming her, right? Because I have to be able to like heal her through people to get onto the field. And if I lose her before I even get onto the field, like there's no way. Yeah, you know, like she'll be like, Oh, I'm just I can just like hit the end of the leash and be crazy. I'll be like, Oh my god, I cannot reel you in. So I would start that routine with that dog, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Oh, idealing people literally just let their dogs like drag them into the ring. It stresses me out.
SPEAKER_09Well, yeah, I don't know. It they like that though. Yeah, yeah, you could not do that at PSA. They would be like, uh, turn right back around and leave. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I wish agility was like that. Like I swear, if I like started volunteering at some trials, I was like, oh my god, like why are dogs four people this dumb? Aren't you supposed to know something?
SPEAKER_09Like I should I should probably uh go go to one of those and just see see what it's like. Um Mandy, have you trialed yet?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I have. Um an IGP.
SPEAKER_09Do you have a pre-trial routine?
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, I do the first saber. Um and then so we're in the parking lot. She's the e-collar. I wouldn't say she's super wise about it, but she knows it when it eats off and on, but she'll know that I'll still hold her accountable if it's off. Um so I still do the shedding routine. So I'll put the first saver on, activate her, she's barking, take the e-collar off, put it in the car, and then walk onto the field.
SPEAKER_01Nice. But yeah, basically what you said.
Building Start And End Training Windows
SPEAKER_09Nice. Yeah, and like outside of sport, this is also what we're kind of doing with our active training sessions with the dog. So, like you guys always hear me preach about have all your equipment on you, ready to go, take the dog out, take them to go potty. Like that is kind of your pre-training ritual, and all of these things that we do are opening the window for like, okay, we're about to train. I want you to turn your brain on. Like, now is when you can be motivated, we're gonna do something fun, fast paced. Like, that is where like that session starts. Obviously, with sport, like it's a lot more intense, like you want a lot more drive out of the dog and all of that sort of stuff. But it's the same thing with our pets, right? All of these little moments, the pottying before our session, cue that we're about to do a session. And so for our dogs, it's very helpful to have different windows. So going potty, bringing them back in, like having a spot that you train the dog, that is opening the window for okay, we're about to do a training session. And then whenever we're all done, we say all done, right? And then I'll put the dog on place, or I'll tether the dog, or I'll crate them, right? We'll do some downtime afterwards. So that is a different window for our dog to exist in of like, okay, just go and chill. A lot of dogs that I work with struggle with that off switch. And so having a clear start and end to our sessions helps the dog with that off switch. They can then be like, okay, I will be told when I can be excited and have lots of high energy. I don't have to decide that for myself. Or also I don't activate the session. Um, I had a client of mine who she was like, my dog is so annoying during work. Like, I am walking him in the morning. I'm doing all I'm doing a training session with him before I have to work. But then when I do go to work, he always grabs his toy and like nudges me, and then I play with him. And so I'm like, okay, so that is your dog has learned how to activate you instead of the other way around. Like, you need to be very clear of like, no, I designate the window of play. So I will go get the toy and I will start it. I don't need you to bring it to me. I will put you on place and designate that off switch for you. Very different.
SPEAKER_07Go ahead. Are there different so so if I want to um have more of an active session with like tugs and higher energy and switch to something different, like um some of like the strength training stuff that requires slightly slower movement versus going on a run and like handy cross where it's like not she should be focused on me, she should actually not do that. I do you would it be the same sort of like we're in some sort of a training mode, and then based on the commands, uh she goes into different modes, or should I have the setup be entirely different as well? You could label it something different.
SPEAKER_09Uh the the the initial uh like the initial instead of like are you ready? Like let's say we designate that for like your active sessions, you could be like active time, you know, or whatever you want to call it of like, hey, this is like this window, we're gonna do this right now.
SPEAKER_07Okay. I think I I've tried that with because we there's some is just environmental, like if we're on the trail, she'll sort of and her her candy cross harness is on, she'll she'll know that that's that. But where I've found that she's a little bit confused is when we're in our living room and we're either playing tug or something very uh specific where I want her to go into different strength training training exercises, versus whenever I switch into free shaping, she's like, Aren't you gonna tell me what to do? So try being like shaping. But how long does it normally take for dogs to catch on to that level of nuance? Or do I have to be more like overt with it or more consistent? Like, should I be jumping around one day shaping another day? I think she's just confused. Like she wants uh she wants to get the food. So she really, really wants to get it right, but she I can tell she's like looking at me. Um that that just means we do shaping, free shaping less because she's just like so confused we don't get anywhere.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. So for me, my free shaping cue is not a verbal command, but it's a setup. I usually have a chair in the room with like an X pen around the task that I want the dog to do.
SPEAKER_07Oh, interesting. Okay, but you could also label it. Yeah, I think part of it is also it's the same spot, everything else is the same. And sometimes I even use the same like uh target. And sometimes it's like helpful. Like in the beginning, it was actually helpful for her to get to the right initial positions through free shaping. Because like, how are you supposed to get a dog to like have both front and back paws on certain targets with just the lure? So free shaping was like helpful in that, but like now she's just confused whenever she sees it equipment out. Um, so that might be a part of it. And for for the second part of jumping around, should I spend like a week just doing one thing or is fluctuating still fine? Is that like I think I think fluctuating is fine.
SPEAKER_09Okay, yeah, I think that's totally fine. Um I actually kind of like that, and I don't know, this is just my experience. Like somebody else might say something different, but I feel like it keeps it interesting for the dog. Like I find that when my sessions look the same every day, the dog is like, here we go. You know, or they like don't even want to engage with me because it's like so predictable. We should be predictably unpredictable in our training sessions. Yeah, dogs should be like, What are we doing? You know, okay. Is that helpful? Yeah, I'll try it. I'll keep you posted. Yeah, and some dogs do better with more clarity. Some dogs don't really need all of that, you know. Like they can pick up context clues of like, okay, when mom sits down and she doesn't say anything, like that's usually free shaping. Um, just kind of like some dogs do better with like more markers, clarity in our markers. Um, some dogs I can just say like yes, and it can mean get the tug or get food or whatever, just reward on me. And then some dogs, if I say yes and they're expecting play and I have food, they're like, What the fuck? Right. And that frustration, dogs that are easily frustrated, like that's when I'll see dogs that are like redirecting things like that. So the clarity in our markers of like, let's say, for me, I do yes is food or yeah, yes is food reward on me, yep is ball or tug or whatever. So if I'm rewarding with a tug, I'm gonna say that word. If I'm rewarding with food, I'm gonna say that word because Muffin doesn't like food as much. So if I say yep and I pull out food, she's gonna be like, what? I want the tug, you know, and then that is kind of like a little kink in our training session. But with most dogs, um they don't get that easily frustrated, so it's not that big of a deal. But if I have dogs like especially Malinois, like they get they're very fast, they get frustrated easily. If I have dogs that are like redirecting um out of frustration, like that could be an area of conflict. So I might like try to avoid that, you know. So like you might have a type of dog that does better with like very clear labeled context clues for your windows.
SPEAKER_07Uh on the rewards part, um she she likes food more than tugs or any toys. Uh so whenever I try to, even if I have like food on me, I can't go back and forth. Yeah, that is a skill on its own. How did you and I think you covered it briefly, but then I is it leaving the higher value reward around and then still just get like playing tug with her with like food somewhere else close by?
SPEAKER_09Um, yeah, you could do that. You could also like switch between them in the same training session. So like she like won't take the tug, like she won't bite it. Yeah, so just keep fixating I will make them like you have to take the tug from me, or I'm just gonna put you away. Do you like shove shove it in their face a couple times? I will like smack them in the face with it. I'll be like, come on, you know, and then okay, and they'll like get frustrated and bite at it.
SPEAKER_07And if they don't, after a couple of tries, just like try again later, put everything away.
SPEAKER_09Put them up, yeah. So the punishment in that case is the training session ends. But like that is a valuable skill on its own, and like I can muffin will not take food around a decoy. I cannot get her to take if there's somebody with a tug in the room standing there, she will not take food from me. If there's no distractions, she will take food. So that for me is my competing motivator, right? So, like a skill that like I can work on in a given session is like I'll have somebody stand there with a small tug, you know, a super tiny tug that is not super rewarding or fulfilling to her. Will you take food if somebody's just holding a tiny tug? Awesome. You take food for me. Now I'll have somebody hold a sleeve, then I'll have someone stand there in a suit, you know. But that's something that I could like work on in training sessions specifically. Um, but like when she's in high arousal, I can barely get her to even take a tug when there's competing motivators around. Like I literally have to like smack her in the face with it, and then she's like, ah, okay, okay, I'll take it. But if there's a decoy, she's like, I don't want the tug, I want the guy.
SPEAKER_07Okay, I'm gonna have to go find like a piece of lettuce or something. She still ate, she even likes lettuce. She literally ate like radish leaves, and we tried it, and we're like, this is spicy. That's hilarious. She's so food motivated, so like I don't even know what the equivalent of a tiny piece of. She loves her kibble, like it's the kibble she's not taking the tug for. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And then also kind of like ask yourself like, where is this gonna be useful?
SPEAKER_07You know, I think it'll really not the tug versus food, but she definitely still zones things out when she wants to like when when there's something she wants to control. So like a bike. It's it feels mostly like a fear thing, but today she was like a little bit thrown off when she didn't anticipate a bike and it kept going, and like she was almost like frustrated because she couldn't chase it. She doesn't chase anymore, but she's just frustrated. So I think that sort of vibe feels like it would be a good parallel to working on some of this stuff inside.
SPEAKER_09I a hundred percent agree. So that's something that's a skill on its own that you can work on, you know.
Stopping Human Reactivity Before A Bite
SPEAKER_06I have a question for you too, Meg. Yeah. So one of my dogs is he's like primarily dog reactive, but more recently, I guess I shouldn't say more recently, he's like kind of he can be like human reactive too, but it's only when like it's only with me, first of all. Like if my fiance takes him out, he doesn't ever do it with him. And when we're out in the yard, I live in an apartment. So like the other day I was outside with both of my dog just for like a party break, and I just had him on a slipway, and somebody came out of the apartment and was like, She's like my friend, so she was walking towards me, like talking to me, and he like freaked the book out and started like barking, lunching, and I was even kind of taken aback because I'm like, wow, like I didn't think. And um just I was like a little nervous because I'm like, I have trouble figuring out like what is intent to say, like I don't know if he I don't know if it's like aggression or if he's just like super over aroused that someone's like walking towards him and he thinks they're gonna hurt him or talk about me or what his deal is, but I guess I'm I have just eat color treatment, and now I'm like I tolerate them so I could work on this creativity, but this is kind of like a whole other branch that I didn't expect to be also working on. I thought I was just gonna be working on like dog activity, which feels a lot more safe than like working a bunch of person, but he's like also it's like not great, it's pretty scary.
SPEAKER_09Um, is he food motivated?
SPEAKER_06Um not in that situation, but like overall, like kind of um what did you do in that moment? Well, I wish I would have had a Z collar on him at that time, but I didn't. Um he was just on a slip leave, so and I have another dog too, and they're both big dogs, so trying to like just had to like choke him out a little bit. Kind of, yeah. I just had to like literally walk back to the house. I mean, I used him to kick because he wasn't even turning around, so I like kicked him not super hard, but enough to be like, hey, listen stupid, like he'll come in.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, did that like zap him out of it a little bit?
SPEAKER_06It did a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_09He wasn't like trying to turn back around, like to towards her, yeah.
SPEAKER_06I mean, he did a little bit, yeah. He did after that, but he wasn't as intense, like I'm gonna be handle and back in the house, but he still did. He did like was still interested.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, so two parts to this. First, we need to shape the behavior of you rewarding him in a sit next to you if you like if he's like uh he wouldn't take food in that moment, like not a lot of dogs would, but let's rep it out inside the house first, right? So have him on leash, put him in a sit next to you. Good, pay, pay, good, the longer you stay there, the more that I pay. Um, and then have you said your boyfriend? Yeah, fiance, have your fiance walk up to you, shake your hand. If he pops up from that sit, no, e-collar stim goes on, he goes back into a sit, good pay, pay, have your fiance walk back up, shake your hand, and rep that out. So rep it out with somebody that you know. Teach the dog, hey, if I put you in a sit next to me, it doesn't matter who is walking up to me. You cannot break this sit. If you stay there, I'm gonna keep paying you. If you get up, e-collar stim goes on. Um, while you're doing this exercise, you'll kind of see your dog's threshold and like he'll probably get excited when your fiance is walking up to you, and like have your fiance be like, Oh wow, what a cute dog! Like, pretend to be a stranger, you know, say silly things, and then let's say he's six feet out in front of you, your dog breaks. Awesome. We're gonna draw an invisible line on the ground. That is our threshold. Okay, so then he walks six feet, he stops, do a Bluetooth handshake, right? So just like reach your hand out, pretend to be shaking, even though you guys can't touch hands. He stays good, pay that, then come a little bit closer, then a little bit closer, then closer and closer and closer until he's able to come up, rep that out, then have somebody else that you know come over, rep that out. But teach your dog the expectation of like, hey, if I put you in a sit next to me, you cannot do that, you cannot lunge at people that are walking up to us.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, because I it's I so I like color creative to be able to like address like an activity. So I ever since that happened, I I've been putting in power outside, especially. So I what do you think about like so this happened happening somewhere outside of like yesterday and a similar very similar thing happened just as a tense because they weren't like they weren't intent to walk towards me, but like they were still walking in my direction, like they were talking to me. I think he he spoke about like certain things, and so I told him no he was like, Oh, he didn't like he wasn't he wasn't state for like it not to matter, like he didn't respond to it, and I never stepped him above like his working level before. Like I've just been I like we literally just finished like like four or five days ago, so I've just been working on a recall of him and just kind of waiting for the moment that he sucks up to do it. So I had him at like a 70 and I just said no and I stimmed him, and he was like, Oh crap. And he did stop. Um, is that like a good approach to that situation, or should I think I should just do six and like work on that first?
SPEAKER_09That is gonna be the the second part of it, is when he does commit to doing that, it needs to be very uncomfortable. And I want you to make it a little bit personal. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, pair it with Stim. So he's like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, right? Um, and that is just like you cannot be lunging at people if you're a big ass dog. Like, that's a safety thing for you too. So, like, do not be afraid to set that boundary with him.
SPEAKER_06No, yeah, I'm not at all. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like ready to correct all of that because I'm I feel like for a long time I like I used to be more like the reinforcement community and stuff like that. That's like where I learned, like I just had setting through people like that. Like, you know, I did like I worked for a trainer like that, so like for a long time I feel like I like to get away with so much because it's just like that's just what it's hard to work something. Um so he's gonna do like a lot of reps of doing a lot of like things that are very naughty, and so um I think I'm hoping eight collar is gonna really like curb that at this point. Because like you said, it really is like a big safety thing. Like, I I was kind of like appalled that he did that. I was like, are you kidding? Like, this is not cute. Um, so I definitely wanna stop it.
SPEAKER_09But at least you saw it in that moment, and you know, okay, I need to address this now before some random person walks up to you, he lunges and bites them, you know. Like I have dealt with a dog bite myself personally, and it is the most traumatic thing that anybody has to go through. It's horrible, horrible, horrible situation. So definitely make it very clear that that behavior is not allowed. And because you've done the e-color conditioning, he knows what the e-color means, he knows where it's coming from. Just add a little bit of like personal correction to it of like, no, and that I do that with behaviors that like I don't want you to ever do that, you know. Like, am I gonna do a big meaningful personal correction with getting off of place? No, I'll just do e-color stim, put the dog back on place. But like for things like that, when we're in that stage of e-color training, right? I'm in the accountability stage. E-color goes on when you're doing things that I don't want you to do, or you're breaking commands or whatever, I'm gonna make it a bit personal of like, no, no, no, no, you cannot do this.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and like hypothetically, should that be like when I'm sitting in? I'm I'm just saying every dog might be different, but how long does that typically take to like curb something like that? Like, if I have a high enough level, should that hypothetically like stop it after a time or two, or how do I know, I guess, if what I'm doing is working and I have to, you know, go in the like do I have to go up to a higher collar or something? Like, I don't want to do graphs on it if it's not like if it's more, you know.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Um, I know that a punishment has worked if the dog is put in a similar situation and they don't repeat the behavior. If let's say you corrected him and then immediately after someone else walked by and he went, I go, okay, my correction was not meaningful enough. So, with like punishments, think of it on a scale of intensity and duration. And so I'm trying to find a level of a correction that is enough so that the dog doesn't repeat the behavior, but is also not too intense and is going to shut the dog down. So maybe that means pressing and holding for four seconds. No, no, no, no, right? That adds some duration to our punishment. The dog is like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I don't have to be at a high, super high level with that, right? Because that like it's coming from the duration of the correction, or I can tap a dog at a super high level on the e-collar, and that might be meaningful enough. Every dog is different, so you'll kind of play around with it. But if I correct the dog for the behavior and then they get put in that situation again and they repeat the behavior, I go, okay, I need to change my correction.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. So play around
Meaningful Corrections Without Nagging
SPEAKER_09with it. Um, I'm looking for something that like I don't have to correct you. I don't have to nag you. I don't want to have to nag the dogs with the e-collar. And that's when we get into the case where we have to get like stronger and stronger e-collars, is we're basically teaching them to tolerate higher and higher levels on the e collar. So I would rather in that moment you dial up to a high level right away than be like, okay, I'm gonna start with 35 and then 40 and then 45 and then 50, right? We're just kind of like ramping up our correction. I would rather you start higher than having to like dial up and kind of nag the dog with the e-collar.
SPEAKER_06Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I did a 70 and that seems like this is working level and it's like outside and he tracked it to like a 19. So I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do and I have an honest 70 like before even one outside, like just in case like there happened to be somebody outside. And I'm glad I did that because like in the moment it's like trying to you know yes create your dial to a number. It's kind of like taking you have like the two seconds to do that.
SPEAKER_09So yeah, exactly. And honestly I don't even really look at the e-colors anymore. I just know that like in the moment if I'm having a dog that I'm like completely losing control over, I'm just gonna crank that up. So like um I did a go home session recently with a dog and we're walking past a fence where a dog was being reactive and so we passed this dog and we're at like a seven I think on the e-collar and then this dog hit the fence our dog hits the fence they're like like pretty much fence fighting and she's sitting there and she's like oh 25 oh that's not doing anything 35 uh 45 and I was like give me the e-collar and I took it and I just ramped it up super high correct the dog the dog goes oh shit okay I'm gonna stop doing that behavior but like I'm not even gonna waste time like trying to find like the perfect level it's like okay this is gonna this is gonna be a high level thing um if we didn't condition the e-color am I going to do that? No but I know that the dog is not going to associate the correction with the other dog or the fence or you know any sort of suspicion to that scenario because the dog knows what the e-color means and that is kind of coming from me you know so as long as you did your conditioning your dog understands the e-color how to turn it off and knows why it comes on you're not gonna get a dog that is shutting down okay yeah yeah yeah he definitely knows what it means we did a lot of like different like obedience commands and leash pressure and recall so like he he knows what it means he doesn't yeah he's he's solid on that so um yeah okay well and simple I just want to make sure I was doing the right thing with that because I mean it looks like you know kind of the deal so yeah for sure and then just rep it out in training sessions inside your house you know and then like once he's doing good with like staying in a sit with your fiance have your friend come over and practice have a neighbor like walk in the hallway and be like hey can you come say hi to me can you come shake my hand I'm training my dog you know like that's something that we do in our um like canon good citizen class one of the skills is somebody has to be able to walk up and like shake your hand and your dog stays in a sit or a down or wherever you want them you know so that's kind of how we're yeah that's how we rep that out is we'll start by walking up talking to the person see where the dog's threshold is where do they break that sit or that down okay we'll start from there and we'll gradually work closer and closer okay all right thank you you're very welcome what else we got I have a question yes so sometimes with our puppy when he's like I would say like so we did that play session I feel like he doesn't really play like that anymore but he like right now I feel like he's mostly interested in chewing on things um he's probably teething yeah so anytime I take out a toy it's like he doesn't want to chase it he doesn't want to like play he just wants to chew on things and that's okay I think more so sometimes when he gets really like ex I think it's because he's getting like overaroused but he will like redirect run at me jump bite my back like we are like full speed coming at me and I'm trying to be like he's just being a puppy and we always have our leash on him and so we all like pull him off and wait until he is calm and sometimes I do think that that's working because I think he is getting better at making good decisions.
Puppy Redirect Biting And Overarousal
SPEAKER_10So like today he's like chewing on stuff he looks at me and I'm like I know what you're thinking right now. He's like I'm gonna do it but he like turned away and like went and got some water and laid down and I was like this is a really good choice but then you know then we go outside to go to the bathroom before he goes back in his crate full speed is running and jumping at me but he'd been out for a while so I just wanted to like I wanted to ask about that just like and then also kind of in relation to like punishment I feel like I when he with like biting or like mouthiness I like tried initially when I asked you about it I don't know maybe a month ago you talked about intensity and duration and so I tried that but it just continued to like amp him up more and more and more and more and so I was instead have been like putting his like lip over his teeth and just like pulling him off and then if he keeps going the leash to just like until he calms down and then doing that but I haven't really been I haven't really been using the word no very much with him at all because I know on your podcast when you've talked about markers being like no is like I never want you to do that ever again and then but then when I would say no when I was like increasing intensity and duration of like scruffing him or something you just keep coming at me and like okay I'm not teaching you the right thing and so I don't want to like not associate the word properly.
SPEAKER_09Anyway so those are I would start pairing your no with like I'm always gonna give you some sort of like correction afterwards whether that's pressure on the leash scruffing you know correcting you with like the little mouth thing where we flip his gums over on his own teeth but I would start pairing that with like if I say no I'm going to apply some sort of pressure afterwards you know and hopefully you can say no and then he's like oh I'm gonna stop what I'm doing to avoid what I know is coming next. Right. So like that's kind of the value in saying our no um a punishment to him could simply be like downtime right I'm not necessarily gonna be like angry when I put him in the crate but like oh okay I'm just gonna put you away right or leash pressure goes on no no no move into him no he's like okay okay okay um but I would kind of get on him because he's gonna be big and he's gonna do the same thing and he's just gonna body you that's my fear yes yeah so when he when he is gonna go do that like you can see he gets like crazy eyes right like wait for him to do it as soon as he starts like making his way to come and like get you no move into him you know like do it now while he's little walk into him or like move into him grab him pull him away no hold him there for a sec. No he calms down okay if he comes back at you no if the third time all right I'm just gonna put you away you know and then like later on down the line you'll have a more meaningful correction um you could do e-collar or prong color you know things like that but for right now just kind of use like the social pressure your dog mommy voice move into him like communicate like I do not want you to do this and then if he's like kind of being like ha ha ha I'm gonna keep doing it because I don't really care then like just put him up you know and be like okay well you don't get to spend time with me when you tackle me and bite me so that's something that like I did not really address with my malinwas and my malinwas will like if I walked into the room and they were out like they will just body me and it's horrible it's a horrible habit and I'm like I should have addressed this when they were little so do not do that with your big ass dog.
SPEAKER_10Yeah we visited some family recently and they have small dogs and so it's like and they'll like play with them very like get them all riled up and yeah like I need you to not do that with my dog because he's gonna be over a hundred pounds and he cannot play like that because he will hurt somebody so so set the tone now while he's little and you're able to okay and then maybe that's just a little time out in the crate okay go settle you're being crazy yep and then what do you have any advice on just like he loves people we get very excited to see people um and will when he was really little wouldn't like pull over like really try to go say hi now he will go try to say hi and so my thought has just been we just have to go public places and you just have to sit there and but I didn't know if there was anything else any other advice that you had on kind of training for that like neutrality and then like the example that you were just talking about of like oh you're gonna sit we're gonna find your threshold you have to stay here what age you would start like working on something now.
SPEAKER_09Start that now yeah so the puppy will always tell me like how much socialization exposure training they need how many people they need to say hi to like let's say I have a dog who's a little bit nervous I'm gonna encourage that dog to go and say hi to people. If I have a dog like yours that is like pulling over to people getting overly excited okay we're gonna limit these interactions and I'm gonna work on tons of neutrality so I go out in public your dog is hanging out on a little blanket at your feet just drop some food when people walk by right so he stays there good pay him pay him keep paying him good stuff happens when you don't get up and kind of chase after every person that walks by practice that put them in a sit have somebody walk up to you shake hands hi so nice to meet you oh my gosh what a cute puppy can I say hi literally practice like pushing them away no sorry we're training pay you know like you it's kind of it feels a little silly at first but it's something that we do in like all of our classes of like okay I'm gonna have you stand there have your dog in a sit I'm gonna walk up to you wow what a cute dog oh my gosh we'll like crouch down we'll baby talk them the dog stays there boom pay okay and right now I just have him on a flat collar and I was wondering about when he's pulling like in that sort of an instance or like sometimes he's like trying to go somewhere in the yard that he I don't want
Choosing Slip Lead Vs Flat Collar
SPEAKER_09him to go.
SPEAKER_10And so like we had a dead squirrel recently and it's like you can't go over there. But he's like pulling on it and I think I've been a little bit worried about like oh am I gonna are you not gonna be associated are you gonna learn to ignore the pressure of this on your neck has been a fear of mine and I know that they're bred to pull. Um so that's I wanted to ask about that too.
SPEAKER_09Yeah so I have different contacts for different tools slip lead you're not allowed to put pressure on no pressure on a slip lead if you put pressure on a slip lead I'm gonna pull you right back to me. Flat collar you can put pressure on a flat collar harness you can put pressure on a harness so if there are moments like let's say you're going for a hike you have him on a flexi lead or you know he's just out in the backyard have him on a like a thick just regular collar and I would get maybe like an inch and a half two inch thick collar that way it's very clear the difference between a flat collar and a slip lead. And then when you're out in public or you don't want him to pull you're starting to shape your loose lead walk slip lead. And I imagine very quickly you'll probably move into a prong collar because he's gonna get big and want to put a ton of force on the leash. So let me know next week if you try slip lead and he's like choking himself we'll kind of cover that.
SPEAKER_10Okay.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Uh it's mostly about we're talking about like the play and everything and maybe think of him I want to play with him tug especially and then my issue with him is that the only person he's ever played tug with is you so I don't know how you got him to play. And the only moments when he wants to play thug with us is when he's going crazy which is not great because then he's just like he's so mainly at nighttime especially after we if we had like a big day and we went for a hike and we had like a lot of activity during nighttime he has a hard time calming down and going to sleep he just kinda he just kind of um gets all riled up and he tries to nibble us which is not entirely like a problem because it's not biting but it is a problem so we don't let him do it.
SPEAKER_09It's a no crate chill and then if we play tug with him when he's trying to nibble us he does he's he loves he wanna bite he's excited but we don't want to like encourage the nipping so I'm gonna try to play with him outside of those moments but I don't know how to because every time I try he just ignores it entirely even there when I took him like with the class with Tom he just doesn't give a damn yeah I would say back tie him put him on a harness and tie him to something so we're gonna utilize his need to pull and build up a little bit of frustration and then with your tug either have like a flirt pull so you have like a leather rag or whatever on the leash
Teaching Tug With Back Tie Frustration
SPEAKER_09or put it put your tug on the leash and then you're gonna kind of like tease him and he's back tied and he's either like wait wait wait I do actually want it okay okay did you do that to him or no did you need to I can't remember to be quite honest.
SPEAKER_08I think I just did um like flirt pull I don't think I had him back tied but it's also it's also like a very sterile environment you know okay I'll try the I'll try to tie him up and see what happens yeah yeah build up build up that frustration and then harness equals play I'll try thank you you're very welcome all right y'all thanks for being here I will see you all next week bye guys thank you guys so much for listening to the episode and being here uh this is your little announcement that the virtual shadow program is opening August 3rd 2023 if you guys are becoming a dark trainer or you're looking for five or dark trainer for a four week online program where I will go through everything from learning theory to work on the